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Author Topic: A mature market?  (Read 2320 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2019, 09:50:00 am »

True...but there are billions of people in this world and a trade show provides access to only thousands. The cost of trade shows is getting out of control, especially when you compare to other marketing schemes that address the entire world. Trade shows were great before the Internet...however their time has come and gone.
Yeah but what happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas.  :) 

BJL

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2019, 10:31:37 am »

The latest Fuji X-Pro3 has a lot of in camera options for processing, including HDR, multiexposure, grain function, curve function, etc, that can be saved in RAW.

I suppose as processing power is increased, more options are available in cameras.
The new X-Pro3 does a lot of things on my wish-list, like collaborating with a smart phone.

One thing that is not clear though: can the bursts taken for HDR processing and such be done hand-held (as with the iPhone 11) thanks to improved IBIS and clever software, or does it still require a tripod?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2019, 10:43:36 am »

The latest Fuji X-Pro3 has a lot of in camera options for processing, including HDR, multiexposure, grain function, curve function, etc, that can be saved in RAW...

Nope, that is not computational photography. That is the same as processing the files in Photoshop.

BJL

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2019, 11:17:57 am »

Nope, that is not computational photography. That is the same as processing the files in Photoshop.
Perhaps an important difference is using “live” information that is not available just from a stack of still frames to be processed later. One example is how an in-phone sweep panorama mode can work with information from a gyroscope synchronised with each (vertical) line read off the sensor, video style. Another is the possibility of using such gyroscope information about the orientation of the camera to align successive frames when merging into one, for the sake of increasing DR or resolution, or either increasing or decreasing OOF effects.
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rdonson

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2019, 11:28:57 am »

True. What I think is meant by that is not a photography processing done on a computer (e.g., Photoshop) but processing done in the phone's computer while pressing the shutter and displaying the result. Things like taking several shots and processing them in a HDR fashion (and beyond that). Also using two or three lenses to provide a depth map.

The Night Mode on the iPhone 11 Apple describes like this:

Or portrait mode:

Video processing:

Perhaps, but I've seen enough samples of iPhone 11 computational processing misses to know its far from perfect.  Amazing as it can be. 

I can take photos in near dark with the Neural Cam app on my iPhone XR.  Is that computational photography?

I'm not a fan though of the notion of limiting computational photography to smart phones or cameras with hefty processing capabilities.  IMHO Adobe and others are using computational photography, AI, neural networks, etc. in their desktop and smart phone products. 
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rdonson

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2019, 01:51:24 pm »

Apple just upped their wordsmithing.....

Now its "DEEP FUSION" they're offering with the latest release of iOS.....

https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/10/apple-iphone-deep-fusion/
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Ron

rdonson

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2019, 01:54:58 pm »

Does this foretell the new equivalent of a Kodak box film camera is a smart phone or digital camera that has all the processing imaginable and we only need to know is where to point the camera?
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Ron

John Nollendorfs

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2019, 02:38:48 pm »

Takes all the fun out of photography, doesn't it? ;-)
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Rob C

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2019, 06:22:22 pm »

Takes all the fun out of photography, doesn't it? ;-)

Yes.

rdonson

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2019, 06:42:56 pm »

Takes all the fun out of photography, doesn't it? ;-)

If all you need/want is 3 built in lenses and a 12 MP sensor then its the cats meow.  For many people it will be more than sufficient.  What else do you need for a selfie?

I don't mean to sell it short though.  It is amazing.  It's just not going to replace any of my cameras or lenses in the near future.

https://youtu.be/6irorkXCLyw

NB - I use my iPhone on every landscape location I go to.  It shows the GPS coordinates of the scene I took.  That's a real boon at times.
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Ron

BJL

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2019, 08:14:14 pm »

Apple just upped their wordsmithing.....

Now its "DEEP FUSION" they're offering with the latest release of iOS.....

https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/10/apple-iphone-deep-fusion/
Deep Fusion is a new thing (in the "Pro" models only) on top of the Night Mode (which is in all "11" models). It is somehow aimed at lowish light, before Night Mode kicks in for even darker scenes.

CORRECTION: it is for all this year’s models. Petapixel’s reviewer is impressed: https://petapixel.com/2019/10/28/deep-fusion-demo-trying-out-apples-computational-photography-tech/
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 09:41:04 pm by BJL »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2019, 10:39:40 am »

I tried to test Night Mode last night, the results are spectacular:

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=132671.msg1136741#msg1136741

eronald

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2019, 09:17:04 pm »

I understand the latest iPhones do not exhibit rolling shutter.

Best wishes,

Jonathan

global shutter is technically feasible, but nowadays it basically costs 1 stop DR.

Edmund
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Peter McLennan

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2019, 11:57:03 pm »

I posted on Google's "Night Mode" back in June.

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=130840.0


The Samsung S10 does it, following an update. The Huawei P20 was the first with this tech to the NA market, I believe.

As a Huawei aside, my friend was photographing his dog recently against a plain background (a lawn)   While he was shooting, he showed me the phone's screen. 

At at the bottom of the viewfinder, it said "dog"  !
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Two23

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2019, 05:27:27 pm »

I think cameras are largely obsolete at this point and the market will continue to shrink.  I have several reasons for thinking that.  First, I'll give an estimate based on my own experience that about 95% of all photos taken are of a family member, pet, new car, or deep snow on the patio deck.  I once worked for Fuji TruColor which would process something like 10.000 to 20,000 35mm rolls per night and that's about all I saw.  Often photos of the summer vacation and Christmas were on the same roll.  People needed a camera to take those photos but ALL of that is now done with a cell phone.  That leaves only niche photography for dedicated cameras--kids' sports, "serious" vacation photos, and "arty' stuff.  I'll add to that a hand full of professionals, also a rapidly declining market.  It seems to be the older generations that are interested in cameras, and that group is declining daily.  Younger people seem to have little interest in photography other than a quick photo to post on Facebook etc., and nothing fancy.  Neither of my sons has any interest at all in photography and neither do any of their friends.  It seems to be a generational thing.  I don't see any advancements in gear changing any of that.  Photography seems to be returning to the state it was in around 1880, with photography mainly done by professionals, artists, and upper middle class & wealthy people who had money and leisure time/travel.

As for me, I have not bought any new gear in over five years.  I always buy used, a couple of years after introduction.  Because of the rapid decline in value I buy digital stuff for about half to two thirds what it cost when it first came out.  I now have a D850 which I paid a little less than $2,000 for.  OTOH, I mostly buy historical camera gear and prices on that have been going up over the past 10 years.  My last purchase was a Horne, Thornwaite & Wood FL=10 inch Petzval made about 1844.  You used to be able to buy those for a hundred bucks on ebay.  I'm looking for a good FL=14 inch Petzval that will cover 8x10 and those are now over $2,000.  I've heard reports from distributors that "craft photography" is making a solid come back in the past few years, such as albumin and cyanotype printing.  For the first time in decades there are commercially made dry plates available.  I shoot those and have also been shooting wet plate since August.  The future of photography is starting to look a lot like the past. :)


Kent in SD
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Alan Klein

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2019, 10:28:22 pm »

The one factor you;re missing is that more of the world is beginning to afford cameras.  So the slack will be picked up by the "new" rich.  Billions of people in China, India and elsewhere.

Two23

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2019, 11:21:01 pm »

The one factor you;re missing is that more of the world is beginning to afford cameras.  So the slack will be picked up by the "new" rich.  Billions of people in China, India and elsewhere.

Well maybe.  However in the past couple of years I've had a number of visits to national parks that had a lot of Chinese tourists--Rainier, Olympic, Acadia, Badlands, Yellowston.  These would have certainly been upper middle class people.  I saw very few with actual cameras, and the few that did were roughly my age.  My son lives in Redmond, WA and there are a lot of Indians (Hindu) there.  These are people making $100,000 to $200,000 a year.  I got to know a couple of dozen and none seemed interested in cameras.  I think it comes down to motivation.  Why would someone want to carry around relatively heavy camera gear, and what's the motivation to take a photo with a camera that can't be taken with a cell phone?  I'm still thinking it's a generational shift.  How many here are under 40 years old?


Kent in SD
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Osprey

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2019, 11:21:28 pm »

The one factor you;re missing is that more of the world is beginning to afford cameras.  So the slack will be picked up by the "new" rich.  Billions of people in China, India and elsewhere.

More like billions more mobile phone customers. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2019, 11:35:46 pm »

Well maybe.  But fashions do change.  Certainly there will be more shakeout of the industry, company's combining, etc. 

Two23

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Re: A mature market?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2019, 12:28:51 am »

A lot of the hobbies that were popular from ~1900 to 2000 are in clear decline.  I'm thinking of stamp collecting, wood working,  model trains, bowling, and so on.  I see photography as just one more example.  There will always be people that go bowling and have a model train layout, but the percentage of the population will never be what it was 50 years ago.


Kent in SD
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