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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 167521 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3780 on: February 03, 2020, 11:20:10 am »

You are exactly right. Presidents are *supposed* to do things that benefit the country, and that *should* improve their reelection chances. But Trump's actions were solely for his own personal benefit and not for the country's. The Ukrainian prosecutor was fired because he *was not* investigating corruption, not because he was looking into Burisma. And this guy's ouster had been requested by several international organizations as well as anti-corruption activists within Ukraine. This is all well-established but those who live in their tidy little Fox-Limbaugh-Hannity-Breitbart bubble are impervious to such information.

Let's assume you;re right.  That the prosecutor was not of any threat to Burisma and VP Biden's son.  However, VP Biden was warned by others in the Obama administration at the highest levels to recuse himself because his son was involved with Burisma and Ukraine.  HIs son got paid exorbitant fees for doing nothing.  That the optics would look terrible if VP Biden was involved.  Yet, Biden ignored all the warnings and optics, and got the prosecutor fired anyway.  So you want as our president a guy so oblivious to politics, so enamored in hubris, so lacking in common sense, that he doesn;t see the threat to himself and the policy he pressed.  Or others and you are wrong about the prosecutors intent and the VP got him fired for nefarious purposes. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3781 on: February 03, 2020, 11:28:35 am »

Absolutely and completely wrong. Witnesses are called DURING THE TRIAL--i.e., the Senate proceedings, so the jury (the senators) can hear the evidence and make up their minds. But the GOP senators (all but two) fell into their goose-stepping line behind Trump and McConnell and said "no." We all knew from day 1 that the Senate would not remove Trump, so the goal is to get all the evidence out there for the public to evaluate. And the GOP has been saying all along that we should let the people decide at the election, but then they do their best to keep information from the voters. Gee, why do you think?
Impeachment has only been done a few times in the 225 years history of the USA.  WE just don;t go there for petty political games.
Until now.  There better be some real proof of High Crimes.  It was up to the House to provide that proof as strongly as possible.  They were derelict in their duty and rushed to judgment and made it all political.  So the republican Senate responded politically and refused to do the House Democrats work to prove their case. 

And you are wrong about getting the evidence out their for the public to evaluate.  That's what elections are for.  But the impeachment process is for Congress to decide to get rid of a president before an election.  USing impeachment to influence future elections is wrong.  It was not the founders intent although that's exactly why the Democrats impeached him not caring about the evidence.  It was a smear job. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3782 on: February 03, 2020, 11:36:30 am »

Absolutely and completely wrong. Witnesses are called DURING THE TRIAL--i.e., the Senate proceedings, so the jury (the senators) can hear the evidence and make up their minds. But the GOP senators (all but two) fell into their goose-stepping line behind Trump and McConnell and said "no." We all knew from day 1 that the Senate would not remove Trump, so the goal is to get all the evidence out there for the public to evaluate. And the GOP has been saying all along that we should let the people decide at the election, but then they do their best to keep information from the voters. Gee, why do you think?

This whole post completely ignores the fact that at any time from now until the election the House can (and has the votes to) call more witnesses and challenge any subpoenas in court.  As a matter of fact, they had this option during the inquiry, but were so hell bent to get this done by Christmas that they did nothing and refused to go to the courts. 

And dont give me the it would have taken too long excuse.  Nixon's official impeachment began on May 9th, 1974 and the Supreme Court ruled on the White House tapes on July 24th of that same year, two and half months later. 

If the Dems are so concerned, then can do so on their own. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 11:45:39 am by JoeKitchen »
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RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3783 on: February 03, 2020, 11:43:09 am »

Absolutely and completely wrong. Witnesses are called DURING THE TRIAL--i.e., the Senate proceedings, so the jury (the senators) can hear the evidence and make up their minds. But the GOP senators (all but two) fell into their goose-stepping line behind Trump and McConnell and said "no." We all knew from day 1 that the Senate would not remove Trump, so the goal is to get all the evidence out there for the public to evaluate. And the GOP has been saying all along that we should let the people decide at the election, but then they do their best to keep information from the voters. Gee, why do you think?

You should get a job writing for fake news, Peter. Oh. . . maybe you already have a job like that. On the other hand, maybe you're just parroting what you're seeing on TV.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3784 on: February 03, 2020, 12:00:42 pm »

So, Russ, what isn't "fake news" ?
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RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3785 on: February 03, 2020, 12:06:51 pm »

Try the Wall Street Journal, Peter. If you watch TV for your news you're almost always getting fake news.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 12:10:10 pm by RSL »
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PeterAit

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3786 on: February 03, 2020, 04:48:42 pm »


And you are wrong about getting the evidence out their for the public to evaluate.  That's what elections are for. 
 

Well duh, Alan. How can the election work properly if the evidence is *not* out there? It has been known from day 1 that the Senate would never vote to remove Trump, that's not the Dem's goal. Their goal is to get the facts about Trump's malfeasance out in the open so the voters can make an informed choice.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3787 on: February 03, 2020, 04:49:06 pm »

Try the Wall Street Journal, Peter. If you watch TV for your news you're almost always getting fake news.

Does that apply to Fox News also?

Cheers,
Bernard

PeterAit

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3788 on: February 03, 2020, 05:02:31 pm »

Does that apply to Fox News also?

Cheers,
Bernard

A recent report from an independent, non-partisan scientific organization said that in reporting about climate change, Fox had the facts wrong 70% of the time.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3789 on: February 03, 2020, 05:13:22 pm »

Bernard, you are (almost) endearingLy cute in your unwavering belief that you are right, not the 63 million Americans, and that your opinion, gathered by reading information from half the world across, is the truth. It is like claiming to be a neurosurgeon after reading a few textbooks.

I am not sure what we are talking about here?

I am certainly right that most of the media except Fox News, be them US based or non US based, have an opinion about Trump and the impeachment that is totally different from yours and those of the few vocal Trump supporters in this thread. This isn’t my opinion, it’s a fact.

Your analogy is fatally flawed. This isn’t me claiming that I am a neuro surgeon, it’s me claiming I understood what 95% of magazines about neuro-surgery call a brain. Only one magazine (yes, the analogy to Fox News) is saying that a brain is something completely different... ;)

I understand that you lived in the US for a long time and think you know better, but frankly, have you not surrounded yourself by people sharing your views? How representative is the sample of the population you are in touch with? What news outlet do you collect information from?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 05:17:27 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3790 on: February 03, 2020, 05:29:51 pm »

Which is only relevant for you in your attempt to desguise the reality that the Senate violated the will of the people they are supposed to be representing.

No Bernard, it is relevant to everyone , well except you. Its a classic example of you getting duped by a poll designed to fool people.  The question was quite clear..."witnesses" and not "additional witneses", and was asked in such a way to elicit the most favorable responses even though the trial DID have witness testimony presented.  As for "violating" the will of the people, if you look at the polls, they tell you that the people are pretty much evenly divided for and against impeachment.  Given the fact that Republican respondants are almost in complete ageement against Impeachment and the Senators who are against ADDITIONAL witnesses are Rebublicans, it appears they are being faithful to their constituents.

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The reality is that the people who answered this question were hoping to see the Senate have witnesses testify, regardless of whether there were already witnesses heard from the congress.

The reality is, IMO and that of others is the vast majority of American had no idea how this trial would work.  Its not like they happen very often or that the average American is actually paying attention to the trial.  Most are tuning it out.  If you were to ask Americans what a witness at a trial looks like I suspect the overwhelming answer would be someone sitting in the dock, being sworn in and being questioned DIRECTLY with in front of the jury.  Like they see on Law and Order.  Of course, your original stated position was "additional witnesses"  Now you are simply trying to do the backstroke.


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So "witnesses" always meant "additional witnesses". That's the default understanding of the meaning of the word in the context and what common sense dictates.

Which is of course complete and utter bullcrap.  The words were PLAINLY written.  Words have meaning.  It this case the meaning was QUITE clear.  You, like Shiff are simply making things up
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3791 on: February 03, 2020, 05:34:41 pm »

Taking a decision that is against the interest of the country but in favor of a re-election is fine as long as the decision is legal.

The fact that such an incompatibility of interest isn't in itself illegal is totally irrelevant to the point being discussed.

The nature of the decison has to be measured against the law and the constitution, and in the case of Trump most legal experts assess the usage of a quid pro quo with a foreign leader as being unconstitutional.

But again, we see that the Republican camp is abusing the usage of twisted logic to manipulate the opinion.

Fortunately, the people aren't stupid and every additional layer of manipulation is simply reducing the credibility of the Republican camp.

Everybody understands that there is no need to twist logic when you have a clear and sound case.

Cheers,
Bernard

The arbitrators of the issue of Trumps actions being against the law and the consitiution rests completely on the Senate.  No other body can decide, be it the House of Represenatives, the Courts or the people.  This power is of course vested to the Senate by the Constitution.  Their verdict is legal and binding.  Deal with it Bernard.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3792 on: February 03, 2020, 05:38:08 pm »

Does that apply to Fox News also?

Cheers,
Bernard

How much Fox news do you actually watch Bernard?  What hard news shows, what opinion shows?  Based on your viewing which hard news shows take a soft approach towards Trump, and which ones are fair in respect to the days headlinesw?
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faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3793 on: February 03, 2020, 05:52:45 pm »

How much Fox news do you actually watch Bernard?  What hard news shows, what opinion shows?  Based on your viewing which hard news shows take a soft approach towards Trump, and which ones are fair in respect to the days headlinesw?
Unless you are retired and sit around watching news during the day, you are pretty much limited to the opinion shows on all the channels.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3794 on: February 03, 2020, 06:41:01 pm »

Not "Trump supporters."  Populists.  Both ends of the spectrum have them and I promise you, if someone wants to post a screed from some rabid Bernie Bro along the same lines, I'll be equally as scornful.

James, I've give this post and the one where we discussed the same issues quite a bit of thought..  Don't you think the very attitude you seem to be espousing is a contributor to the feelings of the so called "populists". Perhaps too uninformed to know whats good for them, leave it to those who know better?  Let the so called "elite" take care of it.  Don't break the system even though its not working for you because its been in place for a long time.

Its not like the normal politicians really care, once the votes have been counted and they are in office.  Oh yea, some platitudes every two to four years to keep the votes coming, but real change?  Not so much. Thats why, IMO Trump broke the mold and brought people along from both sides and the middle.  We can argue if he has actually performed for them, but thats another story.  Bernie brings the same dynamic but just to a different group.

I can understand the fear these candidates represent for the status quo.  But its a vaild viewpoint even if you or I don't espouse the same views.  But to  demean these folks on anything other than ideology is wrong IMO.  I don't have to like what Sanders and his supporters stand for, but that does not mean I should disrespect them as people.  Thats the way we American used to behave.  It's a shame we don't now.   We used to be able to have honest political differences without hating each other. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3795 on: February 03, 2020, 06:47:34 pm »

Shiff reduced to begging for a single Republican vote...

He laid it on thick today in his closing argument, even suggesting Trump shoud be impeached for what he MIGHT do in the future. and then he begs for a single Republican vote.

"Every single vote, even a single vote by a single member can change the course of history. It is said that a single man or woman of courage makes a majority. Is there one among you who will say ‘enough!’?" Schiff asked.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3796 on: February 03, 2020, 07:42:55 pm »

Regrettably, there was no one. They should have sent into that room some hot Oriental who would cough and sneeze.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3797 on: February 03, 2020, 07:43:37 pm »

Shiff reduced to begging for a single Republican vote...

He laid it on thick today in his closing argument, even suggesting Trump shoud be impeached for what he MIGHT do in the future. and then he begs for a single Republican vote.

"Every single vote, even a single vote by a single member can change the course of history. It is said that a single man or woman of courage makes a majority. Is there one among you who will say ‘enough!’?" Schiff asked.

Schiff is asking the Republicans to do the job he and the Democrats didn't do.  Provide the actual evidence that Trump committed a high crime before sending it to the Senate. That's what the Constitution requires.  Instead, they turned the whole thing into a political coup which is what it has been for 3 years. 

RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3798 on: February 03, 2020, 07:45:50 pm »

Does that apply to Fox News also?

Cheers,
Bernard

Sometimes, Bernard, but they tend to be a lot more accurate than the rest of the TV crocks.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3799 on: February 03, 2020, 07:54:59 pm »

Regrettably, there was no one. They should have sent into that room some hot Oriental who would cough and sneeze.

I don't believe Oriental is the Prefered Nomenclature!
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