Impeaching Donald Trump

[LesPalenik]

Sorry, Les, it was not public, it was a private conversation, that should have never aired publicly.

You are absolutely right, Slobodan, it should have never been aired publicly. Maybe he should have never mentioned it. Or done in the first place.
But then some say it was just a locker room talk. OTOH, one woman said about Trump who flew with her that he was like an octopus and "his hands were everywhere".

[James Clark]

Please quote some sources for the above claims.

https://www.ft.com/content/e1454ace-e61b-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc covers just about all of them.

Also, Here's Rob Portman (R) asking for Ukraine prosecutor's office reform just before Shokin was fired.

And sorry for not getting back to your other questions yet.  Gotta work

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...Gotta work

Much better choice

[James Clark]

Much better choice

Right? 

[JoeKitchen]

Should be good for Buttigieg.

Buttigieg is finish.  Even the NYTs has written him off in their endorsement of Warren.  They patted him on the head and said, "maybe when you're older you'll make a great politician someday."  I'm paraphrasing of course, but this was pretty much the gist of it. 

This is all great for Bernie, which would be the biggest gift to Trump. 

With the impeachment, if Biden wins, it will be a referendum on Trump.  If Bernie wins, it instantly becomes a referendum on Bernie, and then the Dems pretty much implode.  You cant really defend a guy who insisted that Castro was a better person then Kennedy.  A person who said it was a good thing country's have bread lines, who hung actual USSR leaders in his Senate office during the Cold War. 

It will be interesting watching Dems get behind Bernie and try to defend him when it is pretty obvious nearly all of the Dems dont agree with his ideas.  You guys will be spinning it 10 times faster then what Trump has ever done in your wildest dreams. 

You better hope it is Biden, or game over. 

PS, the fact that so many news organizations on the left are endorsing Warren shows just how out of touch the news media is with even Dems at this point.  The fakest and most loathsome politician in history that had the biggest fall from grace I can remember is getting endorsements. 

The mainstream media is dead. 

[BernardLanguillier]

You probably need to think before you write, Bernard. His lawyers aren't saying anything about his "innocence." What they're saying is that an opinion isn't evidence. All we've heard or seen so far are opinions coming from people with bad cases of Trump derangement syndrome. It isn't evidence. It's the cheapest kind of hearsay and it's clearly biased.

OK, so I am the one not thinking here...  When you say "a proof that he is not guilty is that there is no first hand testimony", how are you not saying "a proof that he is innocent is that there is no first hand testimony"?

And... how are you not saying "our arguments would be demolished if a person with first hand evidence did testify"?

Besides, Sonderland would be a "bad case of Trump derangement syndrome"? Sonderland was put in function by Trump himself for god's sake.

I wonder whether you realize that your insistence on the misguided usage of rethorics only goes to highlight how desperate your arguments are?

Cheers,
Bernard

[JoeKitchen]

OK, so I am the one not thinking here...  When you say "a proof that he is not guilty is that there is no first hand testimony", how are you not saying "a proof that he is innocent is that there is no first hand testimony"?

And... how are you not saying "our arguments would be demolished if a person with first hand evidence did testify"?

Besides, Sonderland would be a "bad case of Trump derangement syndrome"?

I wonder whether you realize that your insistence on the misguided usage of rethorics only goes to highlight how desperate your arguments are?

Cheers,
Bernard

In Western courts, you don't prove you are innocent, since you are assumed innocent until proven guilty.  You just need to show you are not guilty. 

Pretty basic stuff. 

[BernardLanguillier]

In Western courts, you don't prove you are innocent, since you are assumed innocent until proven guilty.  You just need to show you are not guilty. 

Pretty basic stuff.

Exactly. I am glad to see we agree.

Proof of non guilt means innocence since innocence can only be proven by the lack of guilt.

So when the lawyers of Trump are saying he is not guilty due to the lack of first hand testimony, they are demonstrating he is innocent.

And this demonstration fails the moment a first hand testimony demonstrating his guilt is brought forward, such as the one of Bolton.

So by refusing the testimony of Bolton the Republicans are obviously preventing the demonstration of guilt from being made, which can only be seen as an obstruction to the spirit of the impeachement process.

Cheers,
Bernard

[JoeKitchen]

Exactly. I am glad to see we agree.

Proof of non guilt means innocence since innocence can only be proven by the lack of guilt.

So when the lawyers of Trump are saying he is not guilty due to the lack of first hand testimony, they are demonstrating he is innocent.

And this demonstration fails the moment a first hand testimony demonstrating his guilt is brought forward, such as the one of Bolton.

So by refusing the testimony of Bolton the Republicans are obviously preventing the demonstration of guilt from being made, which can only be seen as an obstruction to the spirit of the impeachement process.

Cheers,
Bernard

I will give that the defense Trump insisted on was completely bonk.  The fact is he did engage in a QPQ, just like Obama did no several occasions.  The question is whether or not it was a legitimate QPQ. 

All evidence, including the recent leak by Bolton, shows Trump was concerned about corruption in the 2016 election.  Trump wanting to investigate this corruption is perfectly legitimate under his prevue, which means Bolton's leak is inconsequential in the greater scheme of things. 

Of course, Trump absolutely insisting on the furtherest possible ground being defended (it was a perfect phone call ...) makes his case rank with holes and looks bad, but it does not mean it is impeachable.  It was a stupid position brought on by his instance he is free of mistakes. 

All of this opened the door for more testimony.  And BTW, if you think Bolton will testify without Hunter being called, you're crazy.  The only way Bolton testifies is if Hunter does as well.  McConnell will probably forth a duel resolution to call both with a single vote.  That will be an interesting to see who goes on the record on the Dems side to vote for Hunter taking the stand. 

Like I said before, if this winds up boomeranging on Biden and Bernie wins the primary, none of this will matter.  Bernie is indefensible. 

LOL, your last statement is quite the stretch btw.  The whole process up to now has been nothing but partisan.  That goes for the Dems just as much as it goes for the Republicans, if not more so. 

[Alan Klein]

Hunter could be subpoenaed to testify but then not show up, or claim the 5th,  after Bolton has testified. 

[BernardLanguillier]

LOL, your last statement is quite the stretch btw.  The whole process up to now has been nothing but partisan.  That goes for the Dems just as much as it goes for the Republicans, if not more so.

Well... Bolton's (let's not forget he is a right winged Republican) testimony will demonstrate that everything the Democrats have been saying was true, which makes their action non partisan.

They just followed the spirit of the constitution and have tried to protect the Democracy in the US. Any civil servant faced with this situation who would not have started an impeachment process would have failed to execute his/her duty. Like it or not, this is the constitution of the US.

What is clearly partisan on the other hand is the way Republicans are currently conducting the Senate inquiries.

But by now this doesn't matter anymore really, all these facts demonstrate with sufficient clarity where the truth is. The only outcome of the current trial is going to be a fatal loss of credibility for the GOP. Those here sticking to their position represent a few % of the population and are mostly irrelevant.

The honest and hard working Americans have understood by now.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Well... Bolton's (let's not forget he is a right winged Republican) testimony will demonstrate that everything the Democrats have been saying was true, which makes their action non partisan.

They just followed the spirit of the constitution and have tried to protect the Democracy in the US. Any civil servant faced with this situation who would not have started an impeachment process would have failed to execute his/her duty. Like it or not, this is the constitution of the US.

What is clearly partisan on the other hand is the way Republicans are currently conducting the Senate inquiries.

But by now this doesn't matter anymore really, all these facts demonstrate with sufficient clarity where the truth is. The only outcome of the current trial is going to be a fatal loss of credibility for the GOP. Those here sticking to their position represent a few % of the population and are mostly irrelevant.

The honest and hard working Americans have understood by now.

 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Exactly. I am glad to see we agree.

Proof of non guilt means innocence since innocence can only be proven by the lack of guilt...

In Western courts, you don't prove you are innocent, since you are assumed innocent until proven guilty.  You just need to show you are not guilty...

Sorry, you both are wrong.

Showing you are not guilty = proving your innocence... and that is NOT what is happening in Western courts, where indeed you don’t have to prove your innocence.

What happens in Western courts is not you showing you are not guilty, but showing that the prosecutor didn’t show, beyond reasonable doubt, that you are guilty. Theoretically, you don’t have to say a word during a trial, or not even have a lawyer, and the jury still might find you innocent, if they believe the prosecution didn’t provide sufficient proof of your guilt.

[JoeKitchen]

Hunter could be subpoenaed to testify but then not show up, or claim the 5th,  after Bolton has testified.

In that case the Senate would more then likely give him testimonial amunity, and hold him in contempt if he then refused to testify. 

[JoeKitchen]

Well... Bolton's (let's not forget he is a right winged Republican) testimony will demonstrate that everything the Democrats have been saying was true, which makes their action non partisan.

They just followed the spirit of the constitution and have tried to protect the Democracy in the US. Any civil servant faced with this situation who would not have started an impeachment process would have failed to execute his/her duty. Like it or not, this is the constitution of the US.

What is clearly partisan on the other hand is the way Republicans are currently conducting the Senate inquiries.

But by now this doesn't matter anymore really, all these facts demonstrate with sufficient clarity where the truth is. The only outcome of the current trial is going to be a fatal loss of credibility for the GOP. Those here sticking to their position represent a few % of the population and are mostly irrelevant.

The honest and hard working Americans have understood by now.

Cheers,
Bernard

Quite rich.  Have you thought about going into the news business? 

[Alan Klein]

In that case the Senate would more then likely give him testimonial amunity, and hold him in contempt if he then refused to testify. 

I'm not sure how that would be done since the DOJ prosecutes as do the states.  Why just call Hunter?  Call Joe Biden as well since it's his testimony that would confirm or refute whether there as something illegal going on.  If Bidens got nothing to hide, he should be willing to testify.  No?

[Alan Klein]

Well... Bolton's (let's not forget he is a right winged Republican) testimony will demonstrate that everything the Democrats have been saying was true, which makes their action non partisan.

They just followed the spirit of the constitution and have tried to protect the Democracy in the US. Any civil servant faced with this situation who would not have started an impeachment process would have failed to execute his/her duty. Like it or not, this is the constitution of the US.

What is clearly partisan on the other hand is the way Republicans are currently conducting the Senate inquiries.

But by now this doesn't matter anymore really, all these facts demonstrate with sufficient clarity where the truth is. The only outcome of the current trial is going to be a fatal loss of credibility for the GOP. Those here sticking to their position represent a few % of the population and are mostly irrelevant.

The honest and hard working Americans have understood by now.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, The Democrats are not concerned with the Constitution.  They have their eyes on the 2020 presidential election and winning it.  That's what the whole impeachment noise has been about since Trump was elected.  It's been a smear campaign from day one.

[kers]

Bernard, The Democrats are not concerned with the Constitution.  They have their eyes on the 2020 presidential election and winning it.  That's what the whole impeachment noise has been about since Trump was elected.  It's been a smear campaign from day one.

As i recall it were the republicans that made a 180 degrees turn when they realized that Trump was going to be the winning candidate; The democrats just were and are and stayed the democrats.
From day one Trump has been ...lying about the most simple facts anybody could check... has been daily vomiting on twitter ... has turned the presidency into a kind of family Soprano dynasty ... has even changed the course of hurricanes if they did not suite him.
And now he has tried to change the course of the election of 2020 to his advantage by abusing his presidential power.
It is in this light the consitution is under threat and action is a neccessity for democrats and republicans alike.

[Craig Lamson]

Well... Bolton's (let's not forget he is a right winged Republican) testimony will demonstrate that everything the Democrats have been saying was true, which makes their action non partisan.

They just followed the spirit of the constitution and have tried to protect the Democracy in the US. Any civil servant faced with this situation who would not have started an impeachment process would have failed to execute his/her duty. Like it or not, this is the constitution of the US.

What is clearly partisan on the other hand is the way Republicans are currently conducting the Senate inquiries.

But by now this doesn't matter anymore really, all these facts demonstrate with sufficient clarity where the truth is. The only outcome of the current trial is going to be a fatal loss of credibility for the GOP. Those here sticking to their position represent a few % of the population and are mostly irrelevant.

The honest and hard working Americans have understood by now.

Cheers,
Bernard

That has got to be the craziest thing posted in this tread yet.  You do understand, don’t you, that Trump voters still stand with him and they are not “mostly irrelevant “.  Did you see that yesterday he had nearly 100k requests for rally tickets for a 20k arena and nearly 30% were Democrats!  In New Jersey!

I’ll cut you some slack for not being American, but being blind to the partisan nature of this  3 year long Democrat attack...not so much.  You don’t know as much as you think you do. 

[Craig Lamson]

As i recall it were the republicans that made a 180 degrees turn when they realized that Trump was going to be the winning candidate; The democrats just were and are and stayed the democrats.
From day one Trump has been ...lying about the most simple facts anybody could check... has been daily vomiting on twitter ... has turned the presidency into a kind of family Soprano dynasty ... has even changed the course of hurricanes if they did not suite him.
And now he has tried to change the course of the election of 2020 to his advantage by abusing his presidential power.
It is in this light the consitution is under threat and action is a neccessity for democrats and republicans alike.

Based on the numbers as of mid December ( the most recent I could find ) a Gallup poll has Trump with a higher approval rating at this point in his term, compared To Obama at the same point in his. 

Lots of people love Trump.