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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 55280 times)

faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #300 on: October 09, 2019, 04:18:25 pm »

Lower taxes are not debt financed.  Expenditures are debt financed.  We are borrowing to make the expenditures possible. Of course, if tax collection is less than spending, we have to borrow or print.  But it's spending that decides how much taxes you need.  The government pays interest on the deficit and debt, money spent.  Not on the tax money not collected.  Unless we get spending under control, we're in trouble.  There's not enough tax money available that won't hurt the economy with the programs the Democrats are proposing.  The Republicans are better, but not by much.
Expenditures are not debt financed. The difference between taxes collected and expenditures made are debt financed. When expenditures stay the same or are increased, lower taxes mean increased debt. It is a direct correlation. Tax collections are replaced by debt. The more taxes are cut, the more debt increases. Such deficit financing gave us two quarters of modest economic growth. Economists have referred to it as a "sugar high". Hardly worth the price of increasing the debt.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 04:23:06 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #301 on: October 09, 2019, 04:28:09 pm »

Expenditures are not debt financed. The difference between taxes collected and expenditures made are debt financed. When expenditures stay the same or are increased, lower taxes mean increased debt. It is a direct correlation. Such deficit financing gave us two quarters of modest economic growth. Economists have referred to it as a "sugar high". Hardly worth the price of increasing the debt.

Yes, expenditures beyond tax collection is debt financed.  I said that: "Of course, if tax collection is less than spending, we have to borrow or print."  But it's expenditures that drive taxes and debt.  I agree with you that it's a sugar high.  It's like getting a new credit card.  It feels great until the end of the month when you get the statement.  :o


Deficit financing gets you growth.  But it's phoney.  Then when you start to pay it back, it hurts the economy.  The interest payment alone kill the budget.  It's just kicking the can down the road.  It's the same as credit card debt.  Pay now or pay later. It costs more later. 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #302 on: October 09, 2019, 05:55:17 pm »

Anyone interested in a factual analysis about the impact of the rate/distribution of taxes as a function of revenue on the economy and unbalanced accumulation of wealth should read Thomas Pickety.

Hint, he is a strong inspiration for Warren and Sanders.

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #303 on: October 09, 2019, 06:19:12 pm »

Anyone interested in a factual analysis about the impact of the rate/distribution of taxes as a function of revenue on the economy and unbalanced accumulation of wealth should read Thomas Pickety.

Hint, he is a strong inspiration for Warren and Sanders.

Cheers,
Bernard

I never heard of Piketty until now.  So I read up on him.  Piketty, born in France,  is a leftist who believes in the global redistribution of wealth to eliminate income inequality.  I'm not shocked if Sanders and Warren are inspired by him.  While he points out income inequality, he doesn;t seem to get to why it is bad.  In America, regardless of the difference, the poor have never been so rich.  So if the system is helping people out of poverty, at least in America (much of his research is in France), he doesn;t explain why income distribution is not good as it is. 


Of course, the socialists and Marxists are excited by his desire to have the government grab people's money and spread it around.  Also, his parents were Trotskyists but supposedly gave that up before he was borne.  I'm suspicious considering his philosophy.  He also says he was turned off to Socialism when he visited the Soviet Union and favors capitalism.  Again I'm suspicious.  If Sanders thinks highly of him, I suspect he's like him too.  If it quacks like a duck, walk like a duck, ...well you know the rest. 

degrub

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #304 on: October 09, 2019, 07:40:49 pm »

Tax cuts are not expenditures.  Most liberals don;t understand that the government does not own or earn the tax money they collect.   The money never belonged to them.  So tax cuts are just leaving more money earned with those who earned the money in the first place.    Tax cut dollars belong to the taxpayer to begin with.

Yeah, that’s fine. But when you have to finance that cut by borrowing......
Good old supply side economics. Not.
Only thing that has done is increase the debt for the grandkids....
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #305 on: October 09, 2019, 07:46:23 pm »

Anyone interested in a factual analysis about the impact of the rate/distribution of taxes as a function of revenue on the economy and unbalanced accumulation of wealth should read Thomas Pickety.

Hint, he is a strong inspiration for Warren and Sanders.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's been pointed out by more then just a hand full that Pinkety cherry picked his evidence for his theories. 

On top of that, those whom always rail against income inequality tend to never remove the outliners in the data (those at the very very top who make up .01% but significantly skew the means) and do not give age the proper weight when looking at income distributions.

For example, the differences in income between the average American and the average Hispanic American is pretty substantial, but the average age of Hispanic Americans is significantly lower, which plays a large role but is hugely ignored by progressives.  There are other aspects as well that greatly effect income inequality that are largely ignored. 

Not to mention, those whom follow his theories tend to support that life is a zero sum gain, meaning that wealth is limited and in order for one person to become wealthy, he/she must take wealth from someone else.  There is no evidence of this, and there is plenty of evidence that wealth is created (out of nothing sometimes), leading to near limitless amount of potential. 

Now this is not to say that excessive income inequality is a good thing; it certainly will cause extreme instability but I do not think we are there yet.  This over emphasis by Millennials and Gen Zs on income inequality is very likely due to the excessive college debt they hold that was brought onto them by the false premise that in order to be successful one needed to go to college.  This in course increased college admissions (demand) faster then supply could increase and, combined with easy to get loans, increased the prices significantly, increasing debt.  Last, and unfortunately, there is only a finite percentage of jobs in the real world that require college degrees, leaving many with jobs that pay too little to pay off the debt and whom have no real skills to work in areas that pay well but require different skill sets then what one would learn in a traditional college. 

Those in the trades are actually doing well, but the stigma of being a tradesman is still prevalent and many trades people are looked down upon by college educated individuals, which I find rather disheartening. 

(If you ever do any work in construction, you will find out that the building science that goes into construction is far more complicated that what it is given credit for.  I recently had a fairly in depth conversation with a client about insulating baring masonry walls and how you need to adjust methods after taking into account masonry materials and zone location.) 

But anyway, getting back to the whole income inequality issue, maybe we are approaching the edge of the cliff.  I was listening to Chris Hedges today talk about the USA in the age of Trump.  Now he is a progressive liberal whom (I think) leans more socialist then capitalist and is an obvious Trump hater, so I will certainly not agree with everything he says.  But he did make a good point that the Democrats, influenced most recently by the Clintons, abandoned the working class, and this lack of support for the working class is what is causing such a huge upheaval in the country.  I tend to agree with this.  Even Jordan Peterson, whom I am more in line with, agrees that excessive income inequality will cause eventual economic failure. 

Hedges also is of the theory that the next bubble to burst will be the college debt crisis, and solutions will be limited since we already used every (progressive) solution in our arsenal in the last recession.  I cant argue against either of these; when/if that bubble bursts, it appears like we will be giving the right wing austerity a try and get to actually test it out. 

My solutions will, it seems, be very different then yours though, at any stretch. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 07:59:53 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #306 on: October 09, 2019, 09:00:47 pm »

...
For example, the differences in income between the average American and the average Hispanic American is pretty substantial, but the average age of Hispanic Americans is significantly lower, which plays a large role but is hugely ignored by progressives.  There are other aspects as well that greatly effect income inequality that are largely ignored. 

Not to mention, those whom follow his theories tend to support that life is a zero sum gain, meaning that wealth is limited and in order for one person to become wealthy, he/she must take wealth from someone else.  There is no evidence of this, and there is plenty of evidence that wealth is created (out of nothing sometimes), leading to near limitless amount of potential. 

Now this is not to say that excessive income inequality is a good thing; it certainly will cause extreme instability but I do not think we are there yet...

WE're not a banana republic where 5% of the population is rich and the other 95% is poor.  We have a huge middle class where people do pretty well.  Even poorer people aren't poor by poor standards in other parts of the world.  I also agree with you that it isn't a zero sum game.A rising tide does lift all boats.  The "poor" are doing much better with more employment and more pay while there are very rich people at the same time.  They're not in opposition.  Rather if the rich are doing well, so is the rest of the country.  The country is stable today. 

I'd rather not call it income inequality in any case.  Wealth inequality fits better.  Most rich money comes from investments that create jobs and provide wealth for many people.  Sure, Elon Musk is a billionaire.  But look at all the jobs he created with his entrepreneurial enterprise.  And he's helping the climate.  :)  There are thousands of his people employed making good money.  My wife and I visited Thomas Edison house and plant in West Orange, New Jersey last weekend and two weeks ago.  This guy worked 20 hours a day.  He never slept; always working on his inventions and business .  He was a millionaire at a very young age,  Meanwhile he employed 10,000 people.  Who would deny his wealth?  Certainly his employees wouldn't. 

This whole inequality argument is a spiritual malady.  It goes to the heart of the commandment that requires us not to covet our neighbor's property because that leads to theft, another thing we're suppose to avoid.  Of course, the government is used to do the redistribution for us.  But all this eats at the heart of a society and leads to conflicts among its citizens, each side claiming the high ground demanding more for its side.  And it's all not necessary since it isn't a zero sum game.  The better people do, the better there's more to go around.  At least in America.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #307 on: October 09, 2019, 11:23:57 pm »

It's been pointed out by more then just a hand full that Pinkety cherry picked his evidence for his theories. 

On top of that, those whom always rail against income inequality tend to never remove the outliners in the data (those at the very very top who make up .01% but significantly skew the means) and do not give age the proper weight when looking at income distributions.

For example, the differences in income between the average American and the average Hispanic American is pretty substantial, but the average age of Hispanic Americans is significantly lower, which plays a large role but is hugely ignored by progressives.  There are other aspects as well that greatly effect income inequality that are largely ignored. 

Not to mention, those whom follow his theories tend to support that life is a zero sum gain, meaning that wealth is limited and in order for one person to become wealthy, he/she must take wealth from someone else.  There is no evidence of this, and there is plenty of evidence that wealth is created (out of nothing sometimes), leading to near limitless amount of potential. 

Now this is not to say that excessive income inequality is a good thing; it certainly will cause extreme instability but I do not think we are there yet.  This over emphasis by Millennials and Gen Zs on income inequality is very likely due to the excessive college debt they hold that was brought onto them by the false premise that in order to be successful one needed to go to college.  This in course increased college admissions (demand) faster then supply could increase and, combined with easy to get loans, increased the prices significantly, increasing debt.  Last, and unfortunately, there is only a finite percentage of jobs in the real world that require college degrees, leaving many with jobs that pay too little to pay off the debt and whom have no real skills to work in areas that pay well but require different skill sets then what one would learn in a traditional college. 

Those in the trades are actually doing well, but the stigma of being a tradesman is still prevalent and many trades people are looked down upon by college educated individuals, which I find rather disheartening. 

(If you ever do any work in construction, you will find out that the building science that goes into construction is far more complicated that what it is given credit for.  I recently had a fairly in depth conversation with a client about insulating baring masonry walls and how you need to adjust methods after taking into account masonry materials and zone location.) 

But anyway, getting back to the whole income inequality issue, maybe we are approaching the edge of the cliff.  I was listening to Chris Hedges today talk about the USA in the age of Trump.  Now he is a progressive liberal whom (I think) leans more socialist then capitalist and is an obvious Trump hater, so I will certainly not agree with everything he says.  But he did make a good point that the Democrats, influenced most recently by the Clintons, abandoned the working class, and this lack of support for the working class is what is causing such a huge upheaval in the country.  I tend to agree with this.  Even Jordan Peterson, whom I am more in line with, agrees that excessive income inequality will cause eventual economic failure. 

Hedges also is of the theory that the next bubble to burst will be the college debt crisis, and solutions will be limited since we already used every (progressive) solution in our arsenal in the last recession.  I cant argue against either of these; when/if that bubble bursts, it appears like we will be giving the right wing austerity a try and get to actually test it out. 

My solutions will, it seems, be very different then yours though, at any stretch.

His new book solves many of the shortcomings of the previous one.

Inequality of income and, more than that, of family capital through inheritance is obviously a major obstacle against equality of chances in a fair society.

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #308 on: October 09, 2019, 11:42:57 pm »

His new book solves many of the shortcomings of the previous one.

Inequality of income and, more than that, of family capital through inheritance is obviously a major obstacle against equality of chances in a fair society.

Cheers,
Bernard

Most of the major entrepreneurial businesses including Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft,and so many others happened in America mostly started by normal people who were not rich.  Jeff Bezos who started Amazon and is now the richest man in the world, had very humble beginnings.  His parents divorced when he was four and he worked for McDonalds hamburger store as a short-order cook.   These businesses  didn't happen in Europe which because of it's socialist and other practices regular people can;t do these things.  Your so-called equality of income doesn;t seem to help you too much there. 

I think I'll wait for his third book.  His second is just more of the same nonsense.  Unfortunately, we have Sanders and Warren getting inspiration from him.  Good grief.
]
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 11:52:20 pm by Alan Klein »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #309 on: October 10, 2019, 12:47:08 am »

Most of the major entrepreneurial businesses including Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft,and so many others happened in America mostly started by normal people who were not rich.  Jeff Bezos who started Amazon and is now the richest man in the world, had very humble beginnings.  His parents divorced when he was four and he worked for McDonalds hamburger store as a short-order cook.   These businesses  didn't happen in Europe which because of it's socialist and other practices regular people can;t do these things.  Your so-called equality of income doesn;t seem to help you too much there. 

It is still much easier to start a company in USA than in most European countries (correspondingly, not only to start them but also to dissolve them). The red tape and accounting hurdles are much worse in Europe than in USA or Canada. Although, now there are several small software or photography companies based in various European countries with excellent and innovative products.

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #310 on: October 10, 2019, 05:31:30 am »

It is still much easier to start a company in USA than in most European countries (correspondingly, not only to start them but also to dissolve them). The red tape and accounting hurdles are much worse in Europe than in USA or Canada. Although, now there are several small software or photography companies based in various European countries with excellent and innovative products.

Sorry, guys, that's not a good thing, neither is it quite accurate.

I started my thing in Scotland with only six hundred quid.

Red tape? Back in '66 there existed a concept known as purchase tax. In order to get an exemption certificate, which permitted the purchase of such things as film without high levels of tax, you were interviewed and depending on the result of that chat, allowed or denied such a certificate. One of the questions I was asked was how much film was I going to be using in the coming year. How the hell did I know? I didn't even know if I could stay afloat for more than six months! I told them the truth, that I didn't know. I guess they thought poor schmuck, he'll be on the dole in a few weeks, let him have his permit. That said, they did make regular checks to the studio where I had to account for every single roll of film that I bought from the wholesalers, and where it was used. After a couple of years the visits stopped.

That was not really unnecessary red tape: that was to make sure I was not using a business as a cover for buying film tax-free at wholesale and selling it off in a little black market venture without paying the tax that should have been applied.

It was easy because I was only doing photography. And that was a mistake, in my opinion. I don't think anyone should be allowed to start a business without having first to prove their competence in the field in which they intend to operate. Only photography; but what about the wedding, memories of which you could ruin forever with dud snaps? No amount of business insurance brings that couple that day back one more time.

I would go so far as to suggest that this:

"It is still much easier to start a company in USA than in most European countries (correspondingly, not only to start them but also to dissolve them)."

is actually a very bad thing for everyone other than the shark.

Rob

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #311 on: October 10, 2019, 05:57:37 am »

Most of the major entrepreneurial businesses including Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft,and so many others happened in America mostly started by normal people who were not rich.  Jeff Bezos who started Amazon and is now the richest man in the world, had very humble beginnings.  His parents divorced when he was four and he worked for McDonalds hamburger store as a short-order cook.   These businesses  didn't happen in Europe which because of it's socialist and other practices regular people can;t do these things.  Your so-called equality of income doesn;t seem to help you too much there. 

Yes, indeed. I agree that Europe needs to lower the barriers to entrepreneurship... but this is a totally different topic.

Pickety has never said that it's impossible to be successful without rich parent. He is saying that it is so much tougher that most people not only don't manage to be successful, they don't manage to live a decent life.

I would personally not be deterred the least bit in my entrepreneurship if I were told that my assets can't go above 30 million US$.

Cheers,
Bernard

LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #312 on: October 10, 2019, 06:02:46 am »

Rob, I don't know about UK, but based on my own experience, the cost and procedures to start a company (solo proprietorship or corporation) were much lower and easier in Canada than in Netherlands, Germany, Czech Republic and Slovakia. OTOH, I was told that starting and operating a business in Poland is much easier than in the surrounding states.

In Canada, it's relatively easy to start a business. You need to apply for a business number (in person or by mail), open a bank account, and print business cards. To dissolve it, you close the bank account and submit the outstanding tax return(s). The cost to register a basic unincorporated company is under $100, and a corporation can be formed for $500-$1000.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #313 on: October 10, 2019, 07:27:52 am »

His new book solves many of the shortcomings of the previous one.

Inequality of income and, more than that, of family capital through inheritance is obviously a major obstacle against equality of chances in a fair society.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ever hear the phrase, "Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations?”

Fact is most wealthy people are wealthy of their own creation, and most inherited wealth is squandered by those who inherited it.  Additionally, since wealth is created, not stolen, I see very little reason why inheritance is an obstacle against equality of opportunity.  It isn't! 

What's an obsticle?  Setting up a system where the only way to advance in society is when you suck up to the ruling elite, like every other system besides capitalism.  This study has actually be done, and they found the closer a system is to capitialism, the easier it is for the average person to advance.  The closer it is to a socialist system (or feudal system) the more likely the only way to advance was through cronyism.   
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Joe Kitchen
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #314 on: October 10, 2019, 07:36:26 am »

But anyway, getting back to impeaching Trump and the whole Ukraine thing, it just seems that Joe Biden cant get a break here. 

Here is a recent NY Times article, "What Hunter Biden Did Was Legal — And That’s the Problem."
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Joe Kitchen
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #315 on: October 10, 2019, 07:46:13 am »

So Trump's moves to deregulate and lower business taxes and those of wealthy people,  helps American business and its economy  and makes America more competitive in the world.  It's entrepreneurial system it's second to none.   Sanders and Warren would destroy it as would Picketty.

jeremyrh

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #316 on: October 10, 2019, 07:48:21 am »

USA!!! USA!!!!
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LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #317 on: October 10, 2019, 07:53:37 am »

So Trump's moves to deregulate and lower business taxes and those of wealthy people,  helps American business and its economy  and makes America more competitive in the world.  It's entrepreneurial system it's second to none.   Sanders and Warren would destroy it as would Picketty.

I don't think anybody could inflict as much damage as Trump - to USA and worldwide.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #318 on: October 10, 2019, 08:07:10 am »

But anyway, getting back to impeaching Trump and the whole Ukraine thing, it just seems that Joe Biden cant get a break here. 

Here is a recent NY Times article, "What Hunter Biden Did Was Legal — And That’s the Problem."
The Times wants Warren as president not Biden.  He's toast.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #319 on: October 10, 2019, 08:41:58 am »

So Trump's moves to deregulate and lower business taxes and those of wealthy people,  helps American business and its economy  and makes America more competitive in the world.  It's entrepreneurial system it's second to none.   Sanders and Warren would destroy it as would Picketty.

Are you seriously suggesting that American enterprise has been held back in the last 20-30 years? What planet do you wake up on every day?
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