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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 138591 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3540 on: January 29, 2020, 05:53:50 pm »

The aftermath of a Trump rally in New Jersey. Great citizens, these Trump supporters, real examples for their children.
It would have been nice if they furnished a few more garbage cans for people's junk.    What I don;t get is I counted about ten chairs people left.

Here's the garbage at a Clinton rally.  It seems slobs don't have any particular party affiliation. 
https://www.fox29.com/news/people-fired-up-after-social-media-photo-shows-trash-on-independence-mall-after-clinton-rally

Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3541 on: January 29, 2020, 05:55:17 pm »

The aftermath of a Trump rally in New Jersey. Great citizens, these Trump supporters, real examples for their children.

Must be from that 30% of the ticket holders that were Democrats...:)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 06:00:46 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3542 on: January 29, 2020, 06:01:49 pm »

It was stunning yesterday, watching the heads of Israel and of the States hold hands and mutually kiss ass, both of them under investigation for crimes of one sort or another, blithely think it wonderfull to carve out parts of the Jordan Valley and Palestinian territory. One has to wonder if they are truly mad or just think of the Palestinians as non-people; you know, like the tribes that had the run of America before the Europeans moved in with their superior weaponry.

How amazingly comforting for Benji to be negotiating Israeli expansionism with the Jewish son-in-law of the "most powerful man in the world"; and yet, some question why the Palestinians refuse to attend and thus legitimise those cosy sewing meetings! As it's said, turkeys choosing how to be cooked for Christmas seems something from the land of the absurd. Funny only the Palestinians realise that tiny detail.

Just ask how the people of Florida might feel if some non-American third party decided to tell them how little they should be allowed to retain of their own land, controlled their boat access to the Gulf and the Atlantic, and by road into the other states.

Maybe that's why the modern gun lobby is what it is: it learned from the Palestinians what can happen to you.

Rob

This commentary appeared yesterday on this very topic, in which you might be interested https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/01/28/the-real-goal-of-trumps-middle-east-plan-108125.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3543 on: January 29, 2020, 06:13:42 pm »

Actually all he had to do was NOTIFY Congress. He then had 45 days.  If Congress THEN passed a law saying it approved of his withoulding, he could do it. If not he had to spend it.  Of course he did not notify Congress.  Instead they issued "footnotes" to document advising of the delay and when they proposed actually releasing the funds.

However the White House lawyers, the DOJ and OMB Lawyers claimed he had immunity from that rule because he was CIC.  Others disagree.  The thinking was supposed to be that the notification would hinder his bargining power in respect to corruption in Ukraine.  No doubt Trump is pushing the envelope.  It will be interesing to see if it is tested in court.

Yourfinal point here is still undecided.  Did he use the bargining chip for his own personal benefit or was there a national interest?  Or both? 

Maybe Chris Kern could chime in and fix everything I screwed up here :)

Actually that's the point I've made over and over.  That he could chew gum and walk at the same time.  As long as there's reasonable belief that a crime was committed, an investigation seems to be in order.  Otherwise, any political opponent could claim political bias and an executive could not order an investigation of a politician from the other party even if he's guilty as sin.   Similarly, the House is doing the same thing.  Everyone knows the impeachment is for political reason for the upcoming election. Pelosi admitted she's been working for 2 1/2 years to impeach him, long before Ukraine.  They're using it for personal political reasons to win the White House in the next election.  Just what they're accusing the president of.    But since they have the legal power to do it, and there appears to be some nexus of a crime the President may have committed, it's perfectly legal.  In fact, VP Biden can claim the same defense.  Sure his son was protected, but the VP had a reasonable national security excuse to get the prosecutor fired. 

I just heard that this very question was asked in the Senate by three of the Republican senators, the one from Maine and two others.  Is it legal to call for an investigation for supposed violations of law if you also can a personal benefit?  This very issue is in the law regarding getting benefits in your campaign.  When Trump paid off the bimbo to keep her quiet, many said that was a violation of the campaign finance law.  But that's not so.  It allows the payment if the payment would have been made under ordinary circumstances anyway to keep the bimbo quiet.  The point being, Trump had a legal reason for investigating Biden as well as a selfishly personal one.  But the legal reason one is sufficient to make it fully legitimate. 

Oh, I found the article.  Here's the extract:

"Collins, along with Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Mitt Romney of Utah, directed the first question at Trump’s defense team.

“If President Trump had more than one motive for his alleged conduct, such as the pursuit of personal political advantage, rooting out corruption, and the promotion of national interests, how should the Senate consider more than one motive in its assessment of Article I?” the trio asked."

In response, White House counsel Patrick Philbin said that, if there was both public interest and personal interest motivating the president’s actions, that would not be the basis for an impeachable offense. He added that concerns about corruption in Ukraine meant that the president was acting in the public interest.


https://bangordailynews.com/2020/01/29/news/nation/susan-collins-and-two-colleagues-get-the-first-question-in-trumps-impeachment-trial/

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3544 on: January 29, 2020, 06:14:49 pm »

Must be from that 30% of the ticket holders that were Democrats...:)

Yeah, it looks like they grabbed the chairs belonging to the Republicans and smashed them in protest.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3545 on: January 29, 2020, 06:21:19 pm »

This commentary appeared yesterday on this very topic, in which you might be interested https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/01/28/the-real-goal-of-trumps-middle-east-plan-108125.
There may be other reasons as well.  The anti-Trump complaints falsely calling Trump an anti-Semite has forced him to go overboard to show he isn't.  So first you get an embassy in Jerusalem and now this.  You could blame the anti-Trumpers for actually making it harder on the Palestinians.

faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3546 on: January 29, 2020, 06:27:09 pm »

"Collins, along with Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Mitt Romney of Utah, directed the first question at Trump’s defense team.

“If President Trump had more than one motive for his alleged conduct, such as the pursuit of personal political advantage, rooting out corruption, and the promotion of national interests, how should the Senate consider more than one motive in its assessment of Article I?” the trio asked."

In response, White House counsel Patrick Philbin said that, if there was both public interest and personal interest motivating the president’s actions, that would not be the basis for an impeachable offense. He added that concerns about corruption in Ukraine meant that the president was acting in the public interest.
What would you expect the President's lawyer to say? Surely you didn't believe everything else they said in the preceding three days.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 06:50:34 pm by faberryman »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3547 on: January 29, 2020, 06:50:32 pm »

Actually all he had to do was NOTIFY Congress. He then had 45 days. . . .

Yourfinal point here is still undecided.  Did he use the bargining chip for his own personal benefit or was there a national interest?  Or both? 

Maybe Chris Kern could chime in and fix everything I screwed up here :)

I'm no expert on the interpretation of the Impoundment Control Act, but the U.S. Government Accountability Office decision of January 16 notes that the law

Quote
. . . authorizes the deferral of budget authority in a limited range of circumstances:  to provide for contingencies; to achieve savings made possible by or through changes in requirements or greater efficiency of operations; or as specifically provided by law. . . .  No officer or employee of the United States may defer budget authority for any other purpose.

If President Trump withheld the congressionally-appropriated assistance to Ukraine for policy reasons, as he and his defenders have stated―e.g., because he was concerned about corruption in Ukraine or wanted to ensure that European governments were incurring their share of the burden of support to that country―that apparently would be a violation of the statute, which is what the GAO concluded in its decision.  In other words, the 45-day notification requirement for authorized deferrals would not apply.

If his request for "a favor" from President Zelensky would have conferred a political benefit to Trump, regardless of whether he may have had another, independent, policy rationale, that would appear to be a violation of 52 USC §30121: "It shall be unlawful for . . . a person to solicit . . . [a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value] from a foreign national."

Whether either of these violations of law justifies removal from office pursuant to the constitutional provisions for impeachment is, of course, a decision for the Senate to make.

Addendum: I did not intend to imply in my initial version of this post that a violation of a statute is a prerequisite for impeachment.  There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that requires a statutory violation, and (the unorthodox claims of Alan Dershowitz notwithstanding) the surviving records of the constitutional convention and the common law of "high crimes and misdemeanors" clearly indicate that a crime is neither required nor sufficient to justify removal from office.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 07:25:02 pm by Chris Kern »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3548 on: January 29, 2020, 07:18:07 pm »

I'm no expert on the interpretation of the Impoundment Control Act, but the U.S. Government Accountability Office decision of January 16 notes that the law

If President Trump withheld the congressionally-appropriated assistance to Ukraine for policy reasons, as he and his defenders have stated―e.g., because he was concerned about corruption in Ukraine or wanted to ensure that European governments were incurring their share of the burden of support to that country―that apparently would be a violation of the statute, which is what the GAO concluded in its decision.  In other words, the 45-day notification requirement for authorized deferrals would not apply.

If his request for "a favor" from President Zelensky would have conferred a political benefit to Trump, regardless of whether he may have had another, independent, policy rationale, that would appear to be a violation of 52 USC §30121: "It shall be unlawful for . . . a person to solicit . . . [a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value] from a foreign national."

Whether either of these violations of law justifies removal from office pursuant to the constitutional provisions for impeachment is, of course, a decision for the Senate to make.

Thanks Chris,

I've been reading on the CIC claim, and its a real push for the President, but its not been tested in court in this specfic instance yet. 

I'm also no expert, but the the Foreign Assistance Act also caught my eye. Again some latitude for a President to withold aid but again some say what he did was illegal.  But the long and short of it is no one has actually sued the administration over any of this, and at least as I see it, being illegal has yet to be determined.  Only opinon has been offered. It might well stand in a court case that what he did was in fact illegal, or not.  Aside from the impeachment, Congress has not tried to get a legal ruling yet.

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Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3549 on: January 29, 2020, 07:37:54 pm »

My favourite takeaway from today's deliberations:

"In answering questions, Mr. Trump’s lawyers offered their most expansive defense of the president to date, effectively arguing that a president cannot be removed from office for demanding political favors if he believes his re-election is in the national interest."


“If the president does something which he believes will help him get elected, in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment,”


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trumpmor
« Reply #3550 on: January 29, 2020, 08:15:14 pm »

Craig, you have to understand that Bernard resides in Japan. He's completely out of touch except for the "news" media and TV, both of which are oriented in one direction. He only gets one side of the story, so don't expect him to understand the situation.

The question you may want to ask yourself is what % of the US you are directly in touch with while living there? How diverse are your information sources?

As far as I am concerned, I access several US based media as well as media from 2 countries in Europe as well as Japan.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 11:56:02 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3551 on: January 29, 2020, 11:38:55 pm »

My favourite takeaway from today's deliberations:

"In answering questions, Mr. Trump’s lawyers offered their most expansive defense of the president to date, effectively arguing that a president cannot be removed from office for demanding political favors if he believes his re-election is in the national interest."


“If the president does something which he believes will help him get elected, in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment,”




Peter: Politicians do this all the time.  After all, we are a democracy and politicians are attuned and should be attuned to the public since that's who votes for their re-election.  When Obama pulled out of Iraq in 2011, against the advice of his military commanders who told him it would create a vacuum, he did it anyway.  He was setting the stage for his re-election.  He had promised his voters he would get us out.  He put his re-election ahead of national interest that disastrously led to ISIS.  But this is not impeachable.  It may be bad policy or good policy. But the voters determine its value through the election process.  We don't impeach a politician for instituting a policy because he's doing it to get re-elected.  Maybe they do this in a parliamentary system.  But in America, we let the president finish his four-year term. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3552 on: January 29, 2020, 11:47:42 pm »

What would you expect the President's lawyer to say? Surely you didn't believe everything else they said in the preceding three days.

Frank, the point isn't what Trump's lawyers said. You don't have to believe them.  However, the main point is that the wavering Republicans have raised the main question about what Trump did.  They are reflecting what I;ve said for weeks.  That an act is legal as long as one of the reasons it was done was for public interest.  The fact it had a tangential personal value to the president does not make the act illegal or impeachable.  So the republican argument in the end will be Trump's act was legal for that reason regardless of any personal benefit he may have received.  That will be the justification for the Senate finding him not guilty. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3553 on: January 30, 2020, 12:15:55 am »

This commentary appeared yesterday on this very topic, in which you might be interested https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/01/28/the-real-goal-of-trumps-middle-east-plan-108125.

Many important Arab countries are supporting Trump's plan for the Middle East for Israel and Palestine. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.  This has been an unsolvable problem for 70 years,   Just that the politics have changed there.  The Palestinians should try to make the best deal they can.  The train is pulling out of the station.

"Arab Leaders’ Support for Mideast Peace Plan Marks a Regional Shift
Tentative backing of U.S. proposal reflects changing priorities, frustration with the Palestinians and more willingness to work with Israel"[/b][/i]
https://www.wsj.com/articles/arab-leaders-support-for-mideast-peace-plan-marks-a-regional-shift-11580325868

DP

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3554 on: January 30, 2020, 12:37:23 am »

The Palestinians should try to make the best deal they can.  The train is pulling out of the station.

SS officer to a Jew : you can walk to a gas camera yourself or we can make a mincemeat out of your first and drag you in... make the best deal you can
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3555 on: January 30, 2020, 01:57:40 am »

A fascinating of Republican logic was outlined by Trump's attorney Alan Dershowitz...

"Every public official that I know believes that his reelection is the public's interest... and if a President does something which he believes will get him reelected in the public interest that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment".

Which can be summed up in "you can do anything if you believe in yourself".

We live in a crazy world where this kind of utter crap is said with straight face in from of the Senate of the US... even in North Korea this would be considered as out of this world crazy.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 02:00:50 am by BernardLanguillier »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3556 on: January 30, 2020, 02:05:13 am »

A fascinating of Republican logic was outlined by Trump's attorney Alan Dershowitz...

"Every public official that I know believes that his reelection is the public's interest... and if a President does something which he believes will get him reelected in the public interest that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment".

Which can be summed up in "you can do anything if you believe in yourself".

We live in a crazy world where this kind of utter crap is said with straight face in from of the Senate of the US... even in North Korea this would be considered as out of this world crazy.

Cheers,
Bernard

I watched it too and found it not only bizarre, but also stupid.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3557 on: January 30, 2020, 02:16:39 am »

I watched it too and found it not only bizarre, but also stupid.

Thanks, Les.

Dershowitz must have read my post in this thread from a month ago:

... 2. “Personal” gain!? Half of America wants him to remain president for their own gain...

LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3558 on: January 30, 2020, 03:46:50 am »

Thanks, Les.

Dershowitz must have read my post in this thread from a month ago:

I don't know why the thanks, but it can't be disputed that half of America wanted Trump as a president. Although, I'm not sure if the percentage is still the same.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3559 on: January 30, 2020, 04:03:52 am »

I don't know why the thanks, but it can't be disputed that half of America wanted Trump as a president. Although, I'm not sure if the percentage is still the same.

“Thanks” for calling me stupid, as I argued the same as Dershowitz, a month before him. 😉

As for the percentage, no, it didn’t stay the same. It went up.
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