Impeaching Donald Trump

[Peter McLennan]

In the U.S. you can walk in to a clinic and get a cat scan within the hour. How long does it take in Canada?

In my case, fifteen minutes.  From the doc's request to supine on the table.

Your example of Canadians taking advantage of the far superior US health system is oft quoted, seldom proven.  My wife suffered a dislocated shoulder while in the USA.  Her hospital stay was under three hours.  The bill was nearly ten large.  Yes, ten thousand dollars.  The care was excellent.

Can we all just agree that some taxes are necessary and that some things are better handled by the government, rather than corporations?  And vice versa? 

This all-or-nothing approach is getting us nowhere.

[PeterAit]

ROTFL!!!! I'd like to pass this one up, but I just can't. Peter, please describe for us exactly what you think a corporation is.

It's an organization that redistributes wealth from workers to owners, as I can well attest to when I see my dividends listed on my tax statements, money I have done nothing to earn.

[JoeKitchen]

It's an organization that redistributes wealth from workers to owners, as I can well attest to when I see my dividends listed on my tax statements, money I have done nothing to earn.

So we can assume, as a loyal socialist, you take the full amount you earn from dividends and donate it to the poor.  I mean, as you said, you did nothing to earn this income and if you even kept one cent, I just dont know how you can sleep at night. 

But anyway, last time I checked, corporations pay what is called a wage to those whom work there.  This is, in fact, a value added exchange, a quid pro quo if you well, for them providing labor to the corporation and the corporation paying them for this service.  And truth be told, if workers felt they were worth more, they have the option to quit and go elsewhere to negotiate a better wage.  This is especially the case now, when the economy today has a better labor market then in recent history.  It is litterally and seller's market out there.  If you have skill, you can name your price.  (If you don't have a skill, well maybe you should have made better life choices.)

[LesPalenik]

In the U.S. you can walk in to a clinic and get a cat scan within the hour. How long does it take in Canada?

For a cat, we can get a scan also on the same day. The actual procedure takes about 20 minutes.
For humans, the scan takes takes also about 20-30 minutes, but depending on the hospital or clinic, the waiting time may be several weeks or months. Of course, in emergency situations, it's done in an hour or two.

[Alan Klein]

It's an organization that redistributes wealth from workers to owners, as I can well attest to when I see my dividends listed on my tax statements, money I have done nothing to earn.

If you get dividends,  that means you're an owner of the corporation which makes you a corporatist.

[BernardLanguillier]

If you get dividends,  that means you're an owner of the corporation which makes you a corporatist.

Let me reveal something to you, it is 100% possible to be in favor of social wealth redistribution and to also invest in companies and to get dividends. What you call coporatists is absolutely not incompatible with social democracy.

Regarding the proposal from Joe that those getting dividends should devote it to the poor, this is completely missing the point. The point of social wealth redistribution is that the taxation and welfare system needs to take care of this. Does it prevent people from donating to charity? No it doesn't, but the system needs to ensure that everyone gets decent safety net.

And yes, this is coming from someone making a very good living and very happy to pay high level of taxes in favor of those who didn't get the chance.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Bernard, are you saying you are making a very good living by chance?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard, are you saying you are making a very good living by chance?

The reality is that being born at the right place had a real high impact on the good living I am making today.

Could I have messed it up? Certainly.

Do I take some pride in having navigated better than others? I probably do.

Does it mean I don’t know how lucky I have been? No it doesn’t.

Could I have gotten where I am today with less luck? Perhaps but it would have been a lot more difficult.

Man often attribute their success to their abilities and their failures to bad luck. I think the opposite is often true.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Man often attribute their success to their abilities and their failures to bad luck. I think the opposite is often true.

That I can fully agree with.

[Rob C]

That I can fully agree with.

And so can I.

When I was leaving boarding school in India for the last time (I hated that prison! The schoool; India was great for me), a pretty young lady wrote in my autograph book: "The secret of success is to be ready when your opportunity comes. Old Indian proverb."

In later years, before I lost that book, I often wondered whether she was telling me something - when it was too late - that I'd been too dumb to understand, or whether it was just an older mind now putting implications into that of a fifteen-year-old kid. Funnily enough, I was to meet my future wife a year later when she was fifteen-and-a-bit. Maybe I did learn something just in the nick of time.

;-)

[RSL]

It's an organization that redistributes wealth from workers to owners, as I can well attest to when I see my dividends listed on my tax statements, money I have done nothing to earn.

Then you certainly ought to stop ripping-off those workers and dump your investments in corporations. Shame on you for being invested in corporations.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

...

Sadly, your link(ed picture) came without introduction or comment to discuss. I thought that was not allowed by the moderator ...

Anyway.

The U.S. Senate seems to be the place where a majority of its members will soon violate their oath to protect and defend the Constitution, and where a republic governed by and for the people will be surrendered for a new kingdom or a new dictatorship.

[ErikKaffehr]

That I can fully agree with.

You two gentlemen made my day!

Best regards
Erik

[Robert Roaldi]

What’s the difference between a public library and an opera? Why, exactly, should taxpayers be forced to support a library? Don’t get me wrong, I love libraries and before the web matured I used to spend a lot of time in libraries. But the question has to do with forcing people who don’t use libraries to support them with their hard-earned money. Unfortunately, I see cases where taxpayer money is being used nowadays to support operas. The NEA is an abomination when you consider that Joe, the guy who works in the Chrysler press plant, and will never go to the opera, is having his pocket picked by his government to support the opera.

Hey, we agree on something. Now you know how I feel when government gives "tax incentives" to pro sports franchises or builds them stadiums. Or hands over a "helping hand" to Amazon so that can "create" jobs. Or passes financial sector laws lobbied for by the financial sector so that can more easily fleece the unsophisticated.

In general though, your libertarian ideal never existed anywhere, certainly not in the US, not even before FDR. Mayberry only existed on TV and was slightly less fake than reality TV, except for Floyd the barber, he was real. Your minimalist view of government works fine in textbooks, I'm sure, but so do a lot of other ideas. You're making a common philosophical mistake, you confuse insurance with lack of freedom. It is insurance, more generally the sharing of risk, that has created the wealthy cultures we live in.

Do you really think it's a mistake to have government-backed standards bureaus, to pick one example, or do you think it is really better that we each have to hire an electrical engineer when we buy a toaster to be sure it doesn't burn down our houses? Do you really believe it is inefficient to have public procedures in place to protect consumers from scam-toaster builders or fraudulent mortgage vendors? You do what communists do, you have latched onto one or two simple ideas, convinced yourself of their correctness, and think that everything fits that mold.

You are confusing mythology with how people actually live.

[Robert Roaldi]

As a general comment, isn't it astonishing what mental gymnastics people are willing to go through to prove to themselves how correct they must be. When you reach the point of declaring that California is a socialist failure waiting to happen, shouldn't you take a step back and re-examine your assumptions about the world.

I mean, seriously, California?

Look up at the sky. It's blue, stop listening to fantasists who tell you it must be yellow.

[BernardLanguillier]

As a general comment, isn't it astonishing what mental gymnastics people are willing to go through to prove to themselves how correct they must be. When you reach the point of declaring that California is a socialist failure waiting to happen, shouldn't you take a step back and re-examine your assumptions about the world.

I mean, seriously, California?

Look up at the sky. It's blue, stop listening to fantasists who tell you it must be yellow.

+1

The same mindset can lead some people to believe that Trump is the victim of a democrat conspiracy, that refusal to testify is an act of resistance instead of an attempt to hide the truth... once you free yourself from truth and reality a world of self-deception opens up to anything you can dream of...

It’s the same kind of mechanism that led to the genocide of more than a million people in Rwanda 25 years ago. A collective hysteria where many people give up on logic and reason to blindly follow a cause. To deprive oneself of the freedom to think in an objective way.

Cheers,
Bernard

[RSL]

Hey, we agree on something. Now you know how I feel when government gives "tax incentives" to pro sports franchises or builds them stadiums. Or hands over a "helping hand" to Amazon so that can "create" jobs. Or passes financial sector laws lobbied for by the financial sector so that can more easily fleece the unsophisticated.

In general though, your libertarian ideal never existed anywhere, certainly not in the US, not even before FDR. Mayberry only existed on TV and was slightly less fake than reality TV, except for Floyd the barber, he was real. Your minimalist view of government works fine in textbooks, I'm sure, but so do a lot of other ideas. You're making a common philosophical mistake, you confuse insurance with lack of freedom. It is insurance, more generally the sharing of risk, that has created the wealthy cultures we live in.

Do you really think it's a mistake to have government-backed standards bureaus, to pick one example, or do you think it is really better that we each have to hire an electrical engineer when we buy a toaster to be sure it doesn't burn down our houses? Do you really believe it is inefficient to have public procedures in place to protect consumers from scam-toaster builders or fraudulent mortgage vendors? You do what communists do, you have latched onto one or two simple ideas, convinced yourself of their correctness, and think that everything fits that mold.

You are confusing mythology with how people actually live.

Robert, you’re right. Humans and their organizations never live up to the ideal, but we can strive to move them in that direction. And yes, the government has no business handing out taxpayer money to companies in pursuit of more jobs or in pursuit of anything. In fact the government has no business trying to create more jobs. Leaving entrepreneurs alone is what will create more jobs.

I don’t know anything about Mayberry or “reality” TV. I stopped watching TV more than ten years ago when I finally realized that bad as it was it actually wasn’t as bad as it could get. My realization has been proven correct over and over again.

But let’s talk about government-backed standards bureaus. Government has several legitimate functions. Defense is one of them. Keeping public utilities delivering clean water and disposing of sewage is another. Maintaining roads is another. Police action to prevent crime is another. A standards bureau – or something like it – is a legitimate function of police activity. But it’s the kind of function that can get out of control quickly once it’s taken over by people with a dictatorial mentality or who profit from deciding who meets the standards. An example: cities where only a government-approved taxi company is allowed to operate. Denver went through that for decades while I lived in Colorado. New York currently is fighting ride-hailing as the “value” of its taxi medallions plummets.

I’m not sure what you were thinking when you wrote your last sentence. I’m old enough that I can distinguish between mythology and reality. Eventually you may be able to do that too.

[Robert Roaldi]

But let’s talk about government-backed standards bureaus. Government has several legitimate functions. Defense is one of them. Keeping public utilities delivering clean water and disposing of sewage is another. Maintaining roads is another. Police action to prevent crime is another. A standards bureau – or something like it – is a legitimate function of police activity. But it’s the kind of function that can get out of control quickly once it’s taken over by people with a dictatorial mentality or who profit from deciding who meets the standards. An example: cities where only a government-approved taxi company is allowed to operate. Denver went through that for decades while I lived in Colorado. New York currently is fighting ride-hailing as the “value” of its taxi medallions plummets.

All shared-risk processes have free-rider problems. What else is new. We need to do everything possible to overcome that, whether in the private or public sector. Arguing that you need to get rid of a shared system because of free riders is silly. It's like saying that all retail outlets should be closed because there exist shoplifters. What you do is implement procedures to correct the system, and all participants pay for that, and likely none of those systems will ever be perfect. It's how almost everything works.

And for the thousandth time, of course people screw up. But it's not any cheaper or more efficient when the private sector does it. That is to say, that is not the criteria by which you determine whether a service should be publicly or privately funded. I bet there were lots of scams while building the US interstate system, a lot of them perpetrated by private enterprises, but is that a reason for not building it? Do you think it's wrong to tax people in Utah to share in the cost of building miles of highways in New York? There are a LOT of needs that cannot be met by private enterprise. The planning time horizon alone bars them from the frame in many cases. It's ridiculous, imo, to suggest that the government's only responsibilities are the military and the police. That's a silly fantasy. You are creating a utopian paradise that doesn't exist and never has and then compare reality to that utopia and find it wanting. 

[Alan Klein]

Like most things, it's a matter of degree.   And a slippery slope.