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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 137122 times)

Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1960 on: December 09, 2019, 06:04:24 pm »

He didn't keep it secret?  He released the transcript when asked for it calling it "perfect" once his private conversation with Ukraine's president was made public by the whistleblower.  Before that, why would the president announce that he called for an investigation?  These are usually kept confidential.  Was the investigation of Trump campaign by the FBI kept secret for many months?   Why didn't Obama release to the public that Trump was being investigated?   Additionally, private conversations between the president and foreign leaders are not usually made public.  The president would never be able to make any deals if foreign leaders knew their private conversations with the president would become public.  That's not how things work.  Remember how everyone made a big deal about Trump's private conversation with Putin?

None of which relates to or answers my question(s).

I'm beginning to agree with Rob.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1961 on: December 09, 2019, 06:05:08 pm »

It wasn’t “forces of the government” that did the burglary, but people related to Nixon’s re-election campaign.
OK>  But I believe forces of the government (justice department) tried to hide that fact.  Didn't the AJ go to jail?

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1962 on: December 09, 2019, 06:08:01 pm »

None of which relates to or answers my question(s).

I'm beginning to agree with Rob.
I answered your first question. Fully.  I'm not familiar with your claim in the second question.  I would need more details from you.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1963 on: December 09, 2019, 06:39:57 pm »

The more the Democrats go after Trump, the more people are going to ask what the Bidens were up too?  Maybe the Dems don't want Biden.  That;s why they don;t care if impeaching Trump will hurt Biden more.  Or, the press will continue to protect him.  But will the other Democrat candidates?  I don't get it. 

‘People have real questions about this’: Hunter-Ukraine questions cloud Biden tour
The former veep still hasn’t found a clear and cogent message when it comes to his son’s overseas business dealings

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/06/joe-hunter-biden-ukraine-2020-tour-077460

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1964 on: December 09, 2019, 06:51:38 pm »

So the initial investigation of the Trump campaign was OK.  But everything that followed was a deliberate attempt to keep the investigation going using all sorts of nefarious methods and misinformation to the FISA court to make the investigation legal subsequently.

Horowitz report is damning for the FBI and unsettling for the rest of us
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/473709-horowitz-report-is-damning-for-the-fbi-and-unsettling-for-the-rest-of-us

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1965 on: December 09, 2019, 08:37:11 pm »

So the initial investigation of the Trump campaign was OK.  But everything that followed was a deliberate attempt to keep the investigation going using all sorts of nefarious methods and misinformation to the FISA court to make the investigation legal subsequently.

Horowitz report is damning for the FBI and unsettling for the rest of us
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/473709-horowitz-report-is-damning-for-the-fbi-and-unsettling-for-the-rest-of-us

Well, no, not exactly.  But you'll get zero argument from me that the FISA process, secret courts with little or no oversight, and poor, negligent, or outright fabricated "evidence" are a larger institutional issue that was a problem long before Donald Trump.

FWIW, I've had a problem with this process since it was instituted under the PATRIOT Act in a knee-jerk reaction to terrorism, had a problem with it when Obama promised to address the issues and didn't, and still have a problem with it.     
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 09:03:37 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1966 on: December 09, 2019, 08:57:25 pm »

Well, no, not exactly.  But you'll get zero argument from me that the FISA process, secret courts with little or no oversight, and poor, negligent, or outright fabricated "evidence" are a larger institutional problem that was a problem long before Donald Trump.

FWIW, I've had a problem with this process since it was instituted under the PATRIOT Act in a knee-jerk reaction to terrorism, had a problem with it when Obama promised to address the issues and didn't, and still have a problem with it.     
Frankly, I can see them doing this kind of dangerous investigation for the average guy.  Everything gets rubber stamped and moved along in the process. No one is really watching the store.   But this case concerned a presidential candidate and president inaugurated to office. All the so-called errors, fabrications, and misapplications seem suspicious.  You'd think meticulous care would have been taken to make sure everything was above board.  But then I'm being naive because there were obviously political machinations going on.  People decided to fudge it so it so the investigation would continue. 

So now, everyone is legitimately concerned that Trump is investigating Biden for political reasons only.  They want to impeach him over it.  Yet, what was done to Trump was actually worse and caused a two year investigation damaging him, the presidency and the country in general. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1967 on: December 10, 2019, 06:53:00 am »

Slobodan, I think that you and I really should try harder to get a life outwith this room...

:-)

I think we need one of these for LuLa:

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1968 on: December 10, 2019, 10:50:36 am »

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1969 on: December 10, 2019, 12:37:07 pm »

In what has to be one of the stranger comments from our President, the following statement came out this morning from @realDonaldTrump, "I don’t know what report current Director of the FBI Christopher Wray was reading, but it sure wasn’t the one given to me. With that kind of attitude, he will never be able to fix the FBI, which is badly broken despite having some of the greatest men & women working there!"

Sounds like the President was up late last night reading the over 300 page report!!!  I don't think the 'Fox and Friends' group would have read it.  I wonder how long FBI director Wray will be in his job.
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Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1970 on: December 10, 2019, 12:44:19 pm »

In what has to be one of the stranger comments from our President, the following statement came out this morning from @realDonaldTrump, "I don’t know what report current Director of the FBI Christopher Wray was reading, but it sure wasn’t the one given to me. With that kind of attitude, he will never be able to fix the FBI, which is badly broken despite having some of the greatest men & women working there!"

Sounds like the President was up late last night reading the over 300 page report!!!  I don't think the 'Fox and Friends' group would have read it.  I wonder how long FBI director Wray will be in his job.

Best to negotiate a good pension and get the hell as far away as possible.

faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1971 on: December 10, 2019, 12:45:27 pm »

I think we all know that Trump didn't read the IG report.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1972 on: December 10, 2019, 03:46:52 pm »

Is Trump going to be requested to testify?
Is he going to accept?
Is he going to lie under oath?

Cheers,
Bernard

RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1973 on: December 10, 2019, 04:16:30 pm »

It won't make a damned bit of difference, Bernard. The House will impeach him, with or without his testimony, the Senate will refuse to convict him, and he'll be reelected next year in December -- if he chooses to run. If not, another Republican will be elected. There's not a single sane candidate on the left. You can argue about Trump's sanity. You even can claim he hasn't improved the economy beyond anyone's expectations. But if you do that, the facts will demonstrate that you're either ignorant or a liar -- or possibly both.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1974 on: December 10, 2019, 05:17:39 pm »

Is Trump going to be requested to testify?
Is he going to accept?
Is he going to lie under oath?

Can you be more specific? What would you like him to testify about? What kind of question would you ask him that would trick him or force him to lie under oath?

- Mr. President, did you use your office for personal gain?
- No
- Mr. President, did you use Ukraine aid to harm your political opponent?
- No

Then what?

I am sure that you et al would consider such answers “lying under oath,” but that’s not how these things work. You can’t prove that those are lies, as yes or no answers to the above questions are simply opposing political opinions, not facts.

LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1975 on: December 10, 2019, 05:27:19 pm »

In the meantime, Michael Bloomberg is preparing for his act.

Quote
U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Michael Bloomberg is at the COP25 climate conference in Madrid. He says he's there for a simple reason: "I am here because President Trump is not."

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/im-here-because-trump-isnt-bloomberg-at-idRCV007L84
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kers

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1976 on: December 10, 2019, 05:38:44 pm »

...
So now, everyone is legitimately concerned that Trump is investigating Biden for political reasons only.  They want to impeach him over it.  Yet, what was done to Trump was actually worse and caused a two year investigation damaging him, the presidency and the country in general.

Both the issues concern the quality and purity of the election system in the US; It is only logical it was investigated, whoever was President.
Normaly the justice department starts an inquiry not the president and there has to be valid reason to start it.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1977 on: December 10, 2019, 05:42:25 pm »

I dont know how anyone can take this seriously after today. 

For the last two months, I have had to listen to all democratic politicians insist that Trump was guilty of an illegal quid pro quo, which then turned into extortion and bribery (because it worked better with focus groups).  And if any conservative or independent or even objective democrat, such as Jon Turley, said that the burden of proof was not met for those crimes, the Dems branded that person as a foolish ideologue who just was not paying attention.  Literally, bribery was forced down the country's throat for two months, and then ... poof. 

There were no charges of bribery nor extortion nor illegal quid pro quo this morning.  Instead, we got two absolute absurdities. 

The first, abuse of power, that was so vaguely defined that literally any action taken by a president that could potential benefit him politically but that you have a disagreement with on policy could be massaged to fit.  Take for example Obama removing troops from the middle east in 2012.  This was clearly done to benefit his re-election campaign and it had some objectively real consequences that threatened our national security, such as the creation of ISIS, albeit after the election.  Should Obama had been impeached over this? 

The second, obstruction, which can not have legally happened yet.  Everyone, including the president, has the right to challenge a subpoena in court.  It is only until after a judge tells you to testify and you refuse, that you are guilty of obstruction.  In Trump's case, not a single challenge has been ruled on yet, which mean obstruction could not have happened yet.  By defining that obstruction takes place merely by refusing to testify, even if no court has ruled on the case, means pretty much every past president was guilty of obstruction.  Obama did not play along with congress on the IRS or the Fast & Furious hearings.  Should he have been impeached? 

I am not one to hap hazardously hit "all republican" when I vote, but after this. 

The fact is this whole thing is a political farce being use to not only damage Trump, but to also help build the case to agrue that, if Trump is re-elected, that the election was illegitimate.  Nadler was on Meet the Press over the weekend and pretty much stated as much. 

When the Dems, in 2016, insisted that Trump would not except the election results if he lost and how that action would damage the country, I agreed with them.  I now still feel that if a political party does not except the results of an election, it is still a damage to the country, even if the Dems do it as well.  The fact is the Dems have shown how willing they are to do so with Stacy Abrams, and it is a dangerous road to go down. 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 05:50:36 pm by JoeKitchen »
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1978 on: December 10, 2019, 05:49:22 pm »

Can you be more specific? What would you like him to testify about? What kind of question would you ask him that would trick him or force him to lie under oath?

I suspect you could ask him literally anything and he'd lie, oath or no oath.  It's in his nature ;)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1979 on: December 10, 2019, 09:40:25 pm »

I dont know how anyone can take this seriously after today. 

For the last two months, I have had to listen to all democratic politicians insist that Trump was guilty of an illegal quid pro quo, which then turned into extortion and bribery (because it worked better with focus groups).  And if any conservative or independent or even objective democrat, such as Jon Turley, said that the burden of proof was not met for those crimes, the Dems branded that person as a foolish ideologue who just was not paying attention.  Literally, bribery was forced down the country's throat for two months, and then ... poof. 

There were no charges of bribery nor extortion nor illegal quid pro quo this morning.  Instead, we got two absolute absurdities. 

The first, abuse of power, that was so vaguely defined that literally any action taken by a president that could potential benefit him politically but that you have a disagreement with on policy could be massaged to fit.  Take for example Obama removing troops from the middle east in 2012.  This was clearly done to benefit his re-election campaign and it had some objectively real consequences that threatened our national security, such as the creation of ISIS, albeit after the election.  Should Obama had been impeached over this? 

The second, obstruction, which can not have legally happened yet.  Everyone, including the president, has the right to challenge a subpoena in court.  It is only until after a judge tells you to testify and you refuse, that you are guilty of obstruction.  In Trump's case, not a single challenge has been ruled on yet, which mean obstruction could not have happened yet.  By defining that obstruction takes place merely by refusing to testify, even if no court has ruled on the case, means pretty much every past president was guilty of obstruction.  Obama did not play along with congress on the IRS or the Fast & Furious hearings.  Should he have been impeached? 

I am not one to hap hazardously hit "all republican" when I vote, but after this. 

The fact is this whole thing is a political farce being use to not only damage Trump, but to also help build the case to agrue that, if Trump is re-elected, that the election was illegitimate.  Nadler was on Meet the Press over the weekend and pretty much stated as much. 

When the Dems, in 2016, insisted that Trump would not except the election results if he lost and how that action would damage the country, I agreed with them.  I now still feel that if a political party does not except the results of an election, it is still a damage to the country, even if the Dems do it as well.  The fact is the Dems have shown how willing they are to do so with Stacy Abrams, and it is a dangerous road to go down.

1. Abuse of power: this corresponds to the previous claims of bribery/extortion/illegal quid pro quo. I am not sure what's not clear. Instead of boring us with several examples, they have grouped them into a single category encompassing the previously discussed deeds,
2. Obstruction: this is quite obviously the case since we have ample evidence that Trump prevented key witnesses to testify (we all know they would have confirmed the accusations). This is clearly not supportive of the on-going investigation and therefore not supportive of the intent of the founders of the US. As far as I know, the Supreme court was a lot tougher on Nixon.

Cheers,
Bernard
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