Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)  (Read 2270 times)

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12646
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2019, 09:25:44 pm »

Will it be possible to convert an existing 23mm HR in Arca mount to the new mount?

Cheers,
Bernard

alifatemi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 277
    • ali fatemi photography
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2019, 11:41:48 pm »

I still prefer to look at my XF optical viewfinder to fram my subject; God I've missed my old Lieca M super-transparent finder...
Logged

JaapD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2019, 01:14:59 am »

I think the “Hoodman HoodLoupe Outdoor Loupe” would be the default accessory for an outdoor camera setup like this. I would prefer it over the “DT Exclusive LCD shade” as I don’t expect that much from it in outdoor situations, checking proper focusing.

Any comparison against a much more feature rich camera like the Fuji GFX 100 looks suspicious to me, especially when choosing a SLR tilt and shift lens which has by default a larger back focus distance. Apples and oranges. Such comparisons could easily turn against you. Think about the missing tilt, very limited lens choice, no AF, no automated exposure functions, no flash functionality let alone HSS, etc. I wouldn’t do such comparison, the XT holds its own value.

Apart from this I think the PhaseOne XT is a great camera concept but I always enjoyed Alpa and Mamiya RZ with its rotating back so that would not come as a surprise  ;)

Regards,
Jaap.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 01:55:42 am by JaapD »
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2019, 08:20:34 am »

I think the “Hoodman HoodLoupe Outdoor Loupe” would be the default accessory for an outdoor camera setup like this. I would prefer it over the “DT Exclusive LCD shade” as I don’t expect that much from it in outdoor situations, checking proper focusing.

The Hoodman is a nice product. Some comparative downsides include:
- you have to take it off and on every time, since using it blocks the touch screen.
- your eye has to be right up against the hoodman; no problem if the camera is at eye-height, modest problem if the camera is at chest level, big problem if the camera is above eye level or low to the ground
- it takes up its own small section of your pack; no big deal when, for example, driving around with your kit in the backseat, but more of a nuisance when backpacking a few miles to get to a location. Especially with an XT where the entire kit can be very compact, the space of accessories makes a difference

Our shade can be left on the camera the whole time, and can be stored reversed over the back so it doesn’t take any extra room in the pack. It doesn’t require the eye to be right at the level of the camera.

Advantages of the hoodman include that it will totally black our ambient light and it provides magnification. I’d imagine given the relative price of either hood and an XT that some might end up with both, using ours most of the time and using the hoodman when the scene is extremely glare predicting (eg shooting with the sun directly behind and above you or when standing amongst a bunch of glass buildings in the city).

Any comparison against a much more feature rich camera like the Fuji GFX 100 looks suspicious to me, especially when choosing a SLR tilt and shift lens which has by default a larger back focus distance. Apples and oranges. Such comparisons could easily turn against you. Think about the missing tilt, very limited lens choice, no AF, no automated exposure functions, no flash functionality let alone HSS, etc. I wouldn’t do such comparison, the XT holds its own value.

I agree such comparisons are fraught! I’d encourage you to read the article. https://phaseonext.com/the-xt-is-smaller-and-lighter-than-you-think/

Here is the intro to the section of that article where we compare size/weight to the GFX. I think you’ll find it echos your comments exactly.

Quote
In many ways it’s not fair to compare a Phase One 150mp XT kit to a small-format or crop-medium-format camera. The Phase One uses a much larger sensor with more resolution, finer gradations, better color depth (true 16-bit raws), and higher dynamic range. For those used to the spectrum of quality ending with something like a Zeiss Otus, the Rodenstock HR digital large-format lenses used with the Phase One XT are in a league all their own. The XT also has built-in movement for every lens, while small-format and crop-medium-format bodies can only use movements on specific TS lenses.

On the other hand, the small-format cameras have features that the XT totally eschews, such as autofocus, 5+ fps continuous shooting, and video. Really, there is very little in common between an XT and these other cameras, and many ways in which any such comparison is unfair or even nonsensical (like comparing the number of boxes you can fit in a cargo van versus a convertible). However, since everyone has held a small-format or crop-medium-format camera, this is a useful physical guidepost for illustrating the size and weight of the Phase One XT.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 08:25:22 am by Doug Peterson »
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2019, 08:26:00 am »

Will it be possible to convert an existing 23mm HR in Arca mount to the new mount?

Yes, in mid-2020.

You would then connect it to an IQ4 back via a cable in order to power and control it.

free1000

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 456
    • http://www.foliobook.mobi
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2019, 09:30:10 am »

Can manual lenses, for example SK 35XL, 47XL and 72L from a Cambo WDS be used on this camera?

I’ve been reading some opinions that these symmetrical lenses, while not having resolution as good as the Rodenstock lenses which are required for the ultimate resolution will benefit from lack of lens casts on the BSI chips.

Logged
@foliobook
Foliobook professional photo

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2019, 09:42:21 am »

Can manual lenses, for example SK 35XL, 47XL and 72L from a Cambo WDS be used on this camera?

I’ve been reading some opinions that these symmetrical lenses, while not having resolution as good as the Rodenstock lenses which are required for the ultimate resolution will benefit from lack of lens casts on the BSI chips.

Yes.

I might suggest these articles tonyou:
- https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/the-phase-one-xt-image-gallery/
- https://phaseonext.com/an-animated-walkthrough-of-the-phase-one-xt/

Both articles go into further detail on this point.

Here is a GIF from one:

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2019, 11:01:30 am »

I still prefer to look at my XF optical viewfinder to fram my subject; God I've missed my old Lieca M super-transparent finder...

I love optical viewfinders and prefer them wherever possible/practical to an EVF. I own both a Fuji XH1 and Fuji X-Pro 1 and vastly prefer the Pro 1 because of its rangefinder (not even a real ovf) despite it being older and lower in image quality on every metric.

But I've also done a several-mile hike with a full XF kit, and would gladly compromise my love of OVFs in that context.

The cost of an OVF, is weight and size, especially on wide-angle lenses. Here is the XT with 32HR vs XF with 35LS BR. The difference is even more stark once you look at a 2 or 3 lens kit.


From The XT is Smaller and Lighter Than You Think.

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12646
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2019, 08:54:48 pm »

Yes, in mid-2020.

You would then connect it to an IQ4 back via a cable in order to power and control it.

Hi Doug,

Thanks for your answer.

Could you please explain how a Roddy 23mm HR in Arca mount differs from the "new" 23mm for the XT?

My understanding is that the only difference is the shutter, the optics being identical. If I am correct, I don't understand why a converted Roddy 23mm would behave differently than a native xT 23mm.

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2019, 09:48:14 am »

Could you please explain how a Roddy 23mm HR in Arca mount differs from the "new" 23mm for the XT?

My understanding is that the only difference is the shutter, the optics being identical. If I am correct, I don't understand why a converted Roddy 23mm would behave differently than a native xT 23mm.

Comparing XT 23HR to a 23HR mounted in a copal.

Exactly the same glass (optics).

But X-Shutter provides:
- Automatic metadata for lens model and serial number
- Automatic metadata for aperture and shutter speed*
- Very precise shutter speeds*
- Shutter speeds in 1/3rd stops (rather than full stops)
- Flash sync up to 1/1000 (instead of 1/500)
- Integration to IQ4 UI allowing
--- electronic aperture control
--- electronic shutter speed control
--- electronic capture
- All of the above control also available in Capture One
- Automatic bracketing

Further, if that X-Shutter 23HR is mounted to an XT (rather than an Arca):
- Triggering via built-in XT body Shutter
- Metadata for X and Y movement for automatic lens correction
- No cable required (power/control passed via body connections)

*Using a Copal Shutter the shutter speed was entirely mechanically determined and so the actual shutter speed would vary by a meaningful fraction of a stop, and the metadata was often recorded incorrectly. Like any of the above features, of course, they may or may not matter to a given photographer depending on the work they do.

free1000

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 456
    • http://www.foliobook.mobi
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2019, 11:47:48 am »

Yes.

I might suggest these articles tonyou:
- https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/the-phase-one-xt-image-gallery/
- https://phaseonext.com/an-animated-walkthrough-of-the-phase-one-xt/

Both articles go into further detail on this point.

Here is a GIF from one:


Thanks.  I think the XT is very cool by the way, a very well thought through refinement of the technical camera concept.

Logged
@foliobook
Foliobook professional photo

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12646
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2019, 02:49:52 pm »

Comparing XT 23HR to a 23HR mounted in a copal.

Exactly the same glass (optics).

But X-Shutter provides:
- Automatic metadata for lens model and serial number
- Automatic metadata for aperture and shutter speed*
- Very precise shutter speeds*
- Shutter speeds in 1/3rd stops (rather than full stops)
- Flash sync up to 1/1000 (instead of 1/500)
- Integration to IQ4 UI allowing
--- electronic aperture control
--- electronic shutter speed control
--- electronic capture
- All of the above control also available in Capture One
- Automatic bracketing

Further, if that X-Shutter 23HR is mounted to an XT (rather than an Arca):
- Triggering via built-in XT body Shutter
- Metadata for X and Y movement for automatic lens correction
- No cable required (power/control passed via body connections)

*Using a Copal Shutter the shutter speed was entirely mechanically determined and so the actual shutter speed would vary by a meaningful fraction of a stop, and the metadata was often recorded incorrectly. Like any of the above features, of course, they may or may not matter to a given photographer depending on the work they do.

Thanks Doug.

If that’s the case why not allow the conversion of existing Arca mount 23mm HR to the new X shutter?

As an Arca user already owning a 23mm HR, I am not going to pay 11,000 US$ to buy again a lens I already own just for a different shutter, be it a great one!

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2019, 03:38:25 pm »

If that’s the case why not allow the conversion of existing Arca mount 23mm HR to the new X shutter?

As an Arca user already owning a 23mm HR, I am not going to pay 11,000 US$ to buy again a lens I already own just for a different shutter, be it a great one!

That conversion will be available in mid-2020.

In my response to you directly above I laid out the advantages of [mount in X-Shutter, regardless of body] as "But X-Shutter provides" and then separately the advantages of [mount in X-Shutter in XT mount] as "Further if that X-Shutter 23HR is mounted to an XT".

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12646
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2019, 04:12:29 pm »

That conversion will be available in mid-2020.

In my response to you directly above I laid out the advantages of [mount in X-Shutter, regardless of body] as "But X-Shutter provides" and then separately the advantages of [mount in X-Shutter in XT mount] as "Further if that X-Shutter 23HR is mounted to an XT".

Thanks Doug.

The scenario I had in mind was a move from my current Area set up to a P1 XT set up.

I now understand that your initial response was focusing on the case where I would have converted the 23mm to X shutter but would have kept using it on an Arca.

Clear now.

Any idea how much such a conversion would cost?

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2019, 04:39:44 pm »

The scenario I had in mind was a move from my current Area set up to a P1 XT set up.

I now understand that your initial response was focusing on the case where I would have converted the 23mm to X shutter but would have kept using it on an Arca.

Aha. Then the only difference is timing and price. Today you can only buy a native ready-to-go XT 32HR. If you want to bring your own lens and convert it you'll need to wait until mid-2020.

Any idea how much such a conversion would cost?

No idea, no. I suspect it won't be cheap, but that covers a very broad range of possible prices.

In the meantime it's always an option to sell your Arca-mount 32 and then buy an XT, or to discuss with your dealer if they are able to offer you a trade-in value for your Arca-mount 32.

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12646
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2019, 11:24:07 pm »

Thanks!

Cheers,
Bernard

JaapD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2019, 06:47:33 am »

I don’t know why PhaseOne hasn’t chosen for incorporating a focal plane shutter in their XT, like the Alpa FPS. Then anyone would be able to use lenses without leaf shutters, or use existing lenses through bypassing the mechanical leaf shutter.

I presume PhaseOne must have thought about that as well, taking the install base of current optics and rework activities to an electronic leaf shutter into consideration.

Any Alpa FPS owners out here understanding why a focal plane shutter would not be a good idea?

Regards,
Jaap.
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4096
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2019, 07:26:08 am »

I don’t know why PhaseOne hasn’t chosen for incorporating a focal plane shutter in their XT, like the Alpa FPS. Then anyone would be able to use lenses without leaf shutters, or use existing lenses through bypassing the mechanical leaf shutter.

I presume PhaseOne must have thought about that as well, taking the install base of current optics and rework activities to an electronic leaf shutter into consideration.

Any Alpa FPS owners out here understanding why a focal plane shutter would not be a good idea?

If P1 used their FPS (focal plane shutter) for the XT:
- flash sync: 1/125
- vibration: more than LS
- aperture control: manual
- lens metadata: none
- durability: ~100,000
- flange distance: uses up several mm

Because P1 used their X-Shutter (a leaf shutter) on the XT:
- flash sync: 1/1000
- vibration: negligible
- aperture control: automatic
- lens metadata: automatic
- durability: 1,000,000
- flange distance: no impact

I don’t have exact weight specs but between the mechanism itself and the impact on the housing/chassis a LS is going to be considerably lighter until you get to a several lens kit. The power draw of a leaf shutter is also considerably less than a FPS since it’s moving a much much smaller mass.

Two advantages of a focal plane shutter (FPS) are:
- reduced cost when the kit has several lenses. It’s not that Phase One doesn’t care about cost, but they are a company that prioritizes quality and flexibility much higher than cost.
- faster max shutter speed (1/4000) albeit without flash sync. This is mostly (though not entirely) covered by sensor-based ES that has come available since the FPS was developed.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 03:54:22 pm by Doug Peterson »
Logged

JaapD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2019, 08:17:58 am »

Thanks Doug, much appreciated!

Some observations w.r.t. a design with an integrated focal plane shutter:
- flash sync: 1/125 => I can’t deny this, but how troublesome is this? Think about the huge amount of cameras with a sync speed of 1/125… 1/250. Can’t be that unusable. I’d also like to mention HSS.
- vibration: considerable => I question this. In many cases with DSLRs mirror slap and shutter vibration are mixed up. Here we only have risk of shutter vibration.
- flange distance: uses up several mm => no impact in case of fully integrating it in the camera design.

Last but not least “It’s not that Phase One doesn’t care about cost, but they are a company that prioritizes quality and flexibility much higher than cost.” => Maybe PhaseOne would be better off if they first care about their customers. Many of them possessing very expensive high quality glass containing mechanical shutters. Solving that problem would be a good example of ‘flexibility’, and not needing to shop elsewhere outside the boundaries of PhaseOne.

Regards,
Jaap.


Logged

Lust4Life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
    • http://www.shadowsdancing.com
Re: Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2019, 08:18:33 am »

We should have this all ready to share later this week.

So it is now the end of the week, pricing???
Logged
Jack
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up