Sure Color Yellow

[deanwork]

Has anyone put an Epson Sure Color yellow ink in a previous series Epson large format with a refillable cart?

John

[aaronchan]

Has anyone put an Epson Sure Color yellow ink in a previous series Epson large format with a refillable cart?

John

Not me but it will work, pretty sure.
But you will need to re-profile everything because the hue is a bit different than the K3 VM/HDR ink set.

aaron

[Alan Goldhammer]

Not me but it will work, pretty sure.
But you will need to re-profile everything because the hue is a bit different than the K3 VM/HDR ink set.

aaron

Since the Epson print driver is not set up for this ink there could be some subtle changes that I don't think profiling alone will address.  The driver controls the individual ink delivery and if the proper mixture cannot deliver a specific color profiling alone won't get you there.

[dgberg]

I am trying to get an answer on this as well.
I have refillable carts on my 3880 and 9900, K3. Tried to find out from Epson if the ink formula was changed on all of the other colors of Ultra Chrome HD and HDX inks. (Yellow we know has been changed.)
Never could get an answer. So if all the other HD inks are still a K3 formulation and Epson just changed the yellow you should be able to introduce the HD yellow with a K3 inset and just do a new profile?
Just speculating here of course.
 Anyone know for sure if the UltraChrome HD inks are different then the K3 inks? (Except the new yellow.)

[aaronchan]

Since the Epson print driver is not set up for this ink there could be some subtle changes that I don't think profiling alone will address.  The driver controls the individual ink delivery and if the proper mixture cannot deliver a specific color profiling alone won't get you there.

No.
Ink is just an ink. Yes, you are right, epson driver does have all the data about the ink hue and saturation, so you won't be able to reproduce the same look as the old inkset nor the new one on it's proper printer. But, if you are talking about does the print looks fine and accurate as it should be, yes, no matter what ink you change, if you profile the printer properly, color should comes out accurate. This is because ICC profile can be meant to be built on top of a non-linear device. Is it a proper way to do it? No. But can it be done? Yes.

So if you use 3rd party ink, the hue will be different than the origianl ink, but once you profile it correctly, you can still get a very accurate print. Gamut size might be different but it can still be printed accurately

aaron

[deanwork]

Yea, I certainly don’t know why not. I’ve used Cones K7 inks for years in this 9890 and tons of people use his Cone Color, Mis, and many other 3rd party color and black and white inks in this printer with custom profiles. I actually want to do this in my 7890 leaving all the k3 hues but only changing the yellow and make custom profiles. The only question would be if the new yellow required more pressure, which I seriously doubt,  the heads are the same.

I wouldn’t believe Epson in this situation because they mislead me back when I had an Epson 10k 44” printer that came with their CF “archival” inkset that had low gamut. When I wanted to put Ultrachrome inks in that they said, oh no it could never work because the driver would never accept them and you’d never get your ink limits right. Then of course everyone started using 3rd party ultrachrome clone pigments in them with custom profiles and they worked totally normally. I used mine for K6 piezo perfectly.

The one thing Epson would not want anyone doing is use 3rd party refillable carts in any of their machines for any reason, because they are an ink and media company first.

John

No.
Ink is just an ink. Yes, you are right, epson driver does have all the data about the ink hue and saturation, so you won't be able to reproduce the same look as the old inkset nor the new one on it's proper printer. But, if you are talking about does the print looks fine and accurate as it should be, yes, no matter what ink you change, if you profile the printer properly, color should comes out accurate. This is because ICC profile can be meant to be built on top of a non-linear device. Is it a proper way to do it? No. But can it be done? Yes.

So if you use 3rd party ink, the hue will be different than the origianl ink, but once you profile it correctly, you can still get a very accurate print. Gamut size might be different but it can still be printed accurately

aaron

[deanwork]

Try it in your 3880 and let us know. They told you you couldn’t do dye sub in them too.  I think it’s going to be so close to the original profile that we will all be surprised, only more longevity. It’s totally insane to toss perfectly good printers for new ones just because one color has been improved. I’d do it in my 3880 but I have bw inks in it for making negs.

John

I am trying to get an answer on this as well.
I have refillable carts on my 3880 and 9900, K3. Tried to find out from Epson if the ink formula was changed on all of the other colors of Ultra Chrome HD and HDX inks. (Yellow we know has been changed.)
Never could get an answer. So if all the other HD inks are still a K3 formulation and Epson just changed the yellow you should be able to introduce the HD yellow with a K3 inset and just do a new profile?
Just speculating here of course.
 Anyone know for sure if the UltraChrome HD inks are different then the K3 inks? (Except the new yellow.)

[aaronchan]

Yea, I certainly don’t know why not. I’ve used Cones K7 inks for years in this 9890 and tons of people use his Cone Color, Mis, and many other 3rd party color and black and white inks in this printer with custom profiles. I actually want to do this in my 7890 leaving all the k3 hues but only changing the yellow and make custom profiles. The only question would be if the new yellow required more pressure, which I seriously doubt,  the heads are the same.

I wouldn’t believe Epson in this situation because they mislead me back when I had an Epson 10k 44” printer that came with their CF “archival” inkset that had low gamut. When I wanted to put Ultrachrome inks in that they said, oh no it could never work because the driver would never accept them and you’d never get your ink limits right. Then of course everyone started using 3rd party ultrachrome clone pigments in them with custom profiles and they worked totally normally. I used mine for K6 piezo perfectly.

The one thing Epson would not want anyone doing is use 3rd party refillable carts in any of their machines for any reason, because they are an ink and media company first.

John

Don't worry about the preasure, the number 1 advantage of piezo head is technically it can spit out "any liquid" (of cuz not, i'm just exaggerating it).
Just go ahead. The new yellow has a much longer longevity compare to the old one, this is what epson said...

aaron

[deanwork]

I think you are right. Epson heads can handle all kinds of dense pure carbon inks in all the channels along with the old lyson cave paint pigments, dye sub formulas, etc etc and there has never been a dye or pigment that I know of that didn’t work. If I do it I’ll switch out the MK ink as well.

Don't worry about the preasure, the number 1 advantage of piezo head is technically it can spit out "any liquid" (of cuz not, i'm just exaggerating it).
Just go ahead. The new yellow has a much longer longevity compare to the old one, this is what epson said...

aaron

[unesco]

I am trying to get an answer on this as well.
I have refillable carts on my 3880 and 9900, K3. Tried to find out from Epson if the ink formula was changed on all of the other colors of Ultra Chrome HD and HDX inks. (Yellow we know has been changed.)
Never could get an answer. So if all the other HD inks are still a K3 formulation and Epson just changed the yellow you should be able to introduce the HD yellow with a K3 inset and just do a new profile?
Just speculating here of course.
 Anyone know for sure if the UltraChrome HD inks are different then the K3 inks? (Except the new yellow.)

Yes, the formula has been changed somehow. I have measured calibration charts for QTR for every channel on P800 and 3880 and the are different in Lab - different shapes of "a-b" curves when sweeping from L~=0 to L~=100. Especially LK and LLK (of course also MK and PK) are different. LK is intensively used by the driver for color mixing. M, C and Y are also different.

The only way to check how it would work is just to do it.
Profiling might help, deffinatelly will be needed, but as Alan has written the output won't be ideal. You can try to linearise your printer first with Epson ColorBase tool, if profiling don't give proper results.

[dgberg]

Pretty much answers my question.
For my refillable carts I wanted to mix together my K3 and HD inks.
Then just use the new HD yellow in place of the old yellow.
Still may try it on my 3880. Presently am holding off buying the chip board/refillable carts for my P800 due to the cost.

[unesco]

Pretty much answers my question.
For my refillable carts I wanted to mix together my K3 and HD inks.
Then just use the new HD yellow in place of the old yellow.
Still may try it on my 3880. Presently am holding off buying the chip board/refillable carts for my P800 due to the cost.

My experiences with both printer generation always lead me at the end to staying with original inks. Experimentation is nice, but I have never received better results using different inks than the ones designed for the given printer.