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Author Topic: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science  (Read 50555 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #880 on: September 20, 2019, 03:14:45 am »

American Jeff Bezos (Billionaire CEO of Amazon) unveils sweeping plan to tackle climate change.  Going to buy 100,000 delivery vans from American electric car company Vivian.  Will beat Paris accord by ten years.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/19/jeff-bezos-speaks-about-amazon-sustainability-in-washington-dc.html

As long as the electricity doesn't come from coal-powered utility plants ...
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #881 on: September 20, 2019, 08:10:57 am »

Coal produced electricity is down to 30% from 50% in America.  Natural gas is up I believe due to fracking.   Co2 is down to 14% from 17%.  Not bad. Of course that's not so good on a capita basis compared to the Chinese although their CO2 is at 30% of the world's production of CO2. 🤓

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #882 on: September 20, 2019, 09:30:25 am »

Here's a article recognizing that changing climate may be past due. But they argue how expanding forests, grasslands, etc could mitigate the problem.  That we should spend more on mitigation to help the growing.  The problem with the article of course is that they never mention once that increased CO2 is already expanding vegetation by allowing areas once unable to support it to now support it.  It's also increasing the amount growing in areas that grew less.  There's enough new vegetation in the world  to cover the US twice over.  Never mentioned in the article.  Just another example of a good article gone bad because they do not want to show anything good that is already happening. 
https://www.sciencealert.com/there-is-one-safe-geoengineering-option-that-could-help-reduce-the-carbon-in-our-atmosphere

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #883 on: September 20, 2019, 04:57:39 pm »

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/a-climate-of-burning-money/news-story/3b1b07a6de6fd03957db72d497b03359?fbclid=IwAR3N5T5-QmiR74L04PHTv3KnT5hBMFRyS00yZIxxTPv0mpuiSxVDqPikxKY

"A climate of burning money"

Who would have thought that there will be, on a rare occasion, a voice of reason in the media!?

The article has so many good points, that it is a shame I can quote only a few (bold mine):

Quote
Paris treaty is likely to cost between $US1 trillion and $2 trillion ($1.5 trillion and $2.9 trillion) a year, making it the costliest treaty in history. Not surprisingly, research shows that it will increase poverty. Its effects are not evenly felt; increasing electricity prices hurts the poor the most.

At great cost, the Paris Agreement will reduce emissions by just 1 per cent of what politicians have promised. The UN body organising the Paris Agreement finds that if all its promises were fulfilled (which they are not on track to achieve), it would cut about 60 billion tonnes of CO2 equivalents, whereas about 6000 billion tonnes are needed to get to the promised 2C target...

... New Zealand. A government-commissioned report found that aiming for net zero emissions by 2050 would cost more than the entire current annual national budget. There would be “yellow vest” riots worldwide if such policies were genuinely pursued...

...According to the UN climate science panel’s last major report, if we do absolutely nothing to stop climate change, the impact will be the equivalent to a reduction in our incomes of between 0.2 per cent and 2 per cent five decades from now...

... if all 4.5 billion flights this year were stopped from taking off, and the same happened every year until 2100, temperatures would be reduced by only 0.03C, using mainstream climate models — equivalent to delaying climate change by less than one year by 2100...

... And electric cars are not the answer. Globally, there are only five million fully electric cars on the road. Even if this climbs to 130 million in 11 years, the International Energy Agency finds CO2 equivalent emissions would be reduced by a mere 0.4 per cent of global emissions...



Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #884 on: September 20, 2019, 05:18:05 pm »

I'll do my part.   I'll stop using my electric toothbrush and go back to the manual version.

LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #885 on: September 20, 2019, 07:04:38 pm »

I'll do my part.   I'll stop using my electric toothbrush and go back to the manual version.

If you are getting up early and go late to bed, you can take advantage of the off-peak electricity hours and keep using the small electric appliances. It works also for the wash machine and vacuum cleaner. Sleep during the day, that prepares your body for the times you'll be shooting sunrises and sunsets. 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #886 on: September 20, 2019, 07:15:31 pm »

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/a-climate-of-burning-money/news-story/3b1b07a6de6fd03957db72d497b03359?fbclid=IwAR3N5T5-QmiR74L04PHTv3KnT5hBMFRyS00yZIxxTPv0mpuiSxVDqPikxKY

"A climate of burning money"

Who would have thought that there will be, on a rare occasion, a voice of reason in the media!?

The article has so many good points, that it is a shame I can quote only a few (bold mine):

Don't know what the article has to say, I apparently need a subscription for that.

But it seems that the article doesn't tell you that even doing nothing will cost more than taking some steps towards mitigation does.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #887 on: September 20, 2019, 08:42:41 pm »


If you are getting up early and go late to bed, you can take advantage of the off-peak electricity hours and keep using the small electric appliances. It works also for the wash machine and vacuum cleaner. Sleep during the day, that prepares your body for the times you'll be shooting sunrises and sunsets. 
We don't have off peak so I can brush my teeth during the day.

Ray

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #888 on: September 20, 2019, 11:07:26 pm »

But it seems that the article doesn't tell you that even doing nothing will cost more than taking some steps towards mitigation does.

I, for one, have never recommended doing nothing. The focus should be on reducing harmful emissions which affect people's health, improving the environment by planting trees, tackling the problem of excessive plastic and toxic waste, protecting people's lives and property through better water management and control of floods, creating more inland lakes to take advantage of the increased precipitation due to warming, which will also lower the rate of sea level rise by 'trapping' the water on land; surrounding new coal-fired power plants with real greenhouses to take advantage of the benefits of the CO2 emissions, and so on.

Spending trillions on the transition to renewable energy, which has already had the effect of significantly raising electricity prices in Australia and elsewhere, such as Germany, makes such projects I've listed above less likely.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #889 on: September 21, 2019, 07:52:32 am »

I, for one, have never recommended doing nothing. The focus should be on reducing harmful emissions which affect people's health, improving the environment by planting trees, tackling the problem of excessive plastic and toxic waste, protecting people's lives and property through better water management and control of floods, creating more inland lakes to take advantage of the increased precipitation due to warming, which will also lower the rate of sea level rise by 'trapping' the water on land; surrounding new coal-fired power plants with real greenhouses to take advantage of the benefits of the CO2 emissions, and so on.

Spending trillions on the transition to renewable energy, which has already had the effect of significantly raising electricity prices in Australia and elsewhere, such as Germany, makes such projects I've listed above less likely.


Our Democrat candidates for president running for the 2020 election want America to spend trillions of dollars on "green".  Sanders, the most generous, wants to spend $16.3 Trillion dollars.  By comparison, that's more than 3/4's of the entire US GDP for a year.  That's more than the combined GDP of Germany, Japan, Italy, France and Britain.   It's about a dozen times your AUstralia's GDP.  The amount boggles the mind and rattles your pocketbook.

Beside all the spending on the programs you mentioned, think of all the money not spent on other things like cancer research, feeding the poor, housing the homeless. creating a national health program for everyone, etc. There's no discussion going on about this.  We're going off hell bent on spending money without any thought of allocations.  It's about politics. 

Meanwhile, the US Federal government's deficit is already $1.07 Trillion dollars just for this year.  Our debt is over $22 Trillion.   Too bad we can't create electricity like we print money.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #890 on: September 21, 2019, 10:46:53 am »

... even doing nothing will cost more than taking some steps towards mitigation does.

Even that is not correct.

William Nordhaus'...

Quote
... model shows that the UN’s target would make humanity poorer than doing nothing at all about climate change.

https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2018/MurphyNordhaus.html?fbclid=IwAR1q3KpizL5VSwGNwiD8S6umZWHZ67JMXzQF3l6vhKks5xnkZZndXdGpGm4


Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #891 on: September 21, 2019, 11:23:46 am »

Even that is not correct.

William Nordhaus'...

https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2018/MurphyNordhaus.html?fbclid=IwAR1q3KpizL5VSwGNwiD8S6umZWHZ67JMXzQF3l6vhKks5xnkZZndXdGpGm4



REPLACEMENT POST-DELETED LAST ONE DUE TO ERROR.
One of the arguments for spending on green is all the new jobs that will be created.  Another myth.  What any honest economist will tell you is that the government does not create jobs.  It only shifts them.  When the government shifts spending through tax charges or deferments, carbon credits, and incentives, they do push private industry to create more jobs in those areas that now have more money available.  But what the dishonest media and dishonest economists who know better don;t tell us is that you lose equivalent numbers of jobs from the areas where the money had been extracted from.  Those areas would have had more money for investment for expansion of business and growth of jobs.  But because the government took that money away, that money is no longer there as capital for investment.  All government does is shift money around.  They never create a net increase in jobs.

The other argument that "look how many new jobs we created in let's say solar and wind energy" is a myth in another way.  You don't measure how well an economy is doing based on how many people it takes to produce a product.  You measure it by productivity.  So because it now needs so many more people to install and service solar and wind than it does mature carbon like coal and natural gas, productivity is down and the cost of a KWH of electricity goes up.  That's worse.  That would be like getting rid of tractors.  Where once it took three farmers to handle 100 acres, getting rid of tractors would now require 20 farmers for the same 100 acres raising the prices of food.  Productivity went down.  Who would argue to get rid of tractors?  Well, that's what we do when we suggest all those "great" jobs in solar and wind. You want less people to make a product not more.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #892 on: September 21, 2019, 11:37:16 am »

Even that is not correct.

William Nordhaus'...

https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2018/MurphyNordhaus.html?fbclid=IwAR1q3KpizL5VSwGNwiD8S6umZWHZ67JMXzQF3l6vhKks5xnkZZndXdGpGm4

From your linked article:
Quote
Both fans and critics of William Nordhaus’s computer model of the global economy and climate acknowledge that it is a crude approach that omits many crucial real-world considerations.

Economic models alone are known to fail miserably in real life. Even Nordhouse had to adjust his model when he updated its parameters:
Quote
Over the years, Nordhaus has updated his model, and he now believes, due to developments in the physical sciences, that the potential harms from climate change are worse than he believed back in 2007. In 2009, for example, Nordhaus estimated the social cost of carbon in the year 2025 at $16 per ton of CO2 (measured in 2010 U.S.$). In contrast, according to his 2016 projections, Nordhaus puts the 2025 social cost of carbon at $44 per ton (in 2010 $)—which means the estimate has almost tripled in less than a decade.

Nordhouse now recommends allowing for a higher temperature increase than 1.5 - 2 Celsius, else his model shows that we've wasted time and cost may become prohibitive if we need to correct our emissions in the shorter period of time that's now left.

He is not a physicist, so it's unclear how he economizes starvation from famine and war, and social unrest and lower life-expectancy and more illness which leads to a less productive and happy life. More dead people is probably cheaper ...

The longer we wait with taking action, the higher the cost will be.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #893 on: September 21, 2019, 12:08:17 pm »

... Economic models alone are known to fail miserably in real life...

Just like climate models.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #894 on: September 21, 2019, 12:12:41 pm »

Just like climate models.

No, just blogs that do not understand the science, or deliberately cherry-pick from it.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #895 on: September 21, 2019, 12:15:19 pm »

From your linked article: “Both fans and critics of William Nordhaus’s computer model of the global economy and climate acknowledge that it is a crude approach that omits many crucial real-world considerations.”

In contrast to his critics, he at least won a Nobel Prize for his work.

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #896 on: September 21, 2019, 12:31:33 pm »

Bart, Germans have taken action. It now costs Germans 2 1/2 times more for electricity than other people.  It's CO2 production has only slightly gone down. What a waste of time energy and money.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #897 on: September 21, 2019, 01:33:49 pm »

In contrast to his critics, he at least won a Nobel Prize for his work.

So did Barack Obama ...
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #898 on: September 21, 2019, 01:37:33 pm »

Bart, Germans have taken action. It now costs Germans 2 1/2 times more for electricity than other people.  It's CO2 production has only slightly gone down. What a waste of time energy and money.

Apples and Oranges. CO2 is not properly priced (or is even subsidized), so even Nordhouse recommends adding a Carbon Tax.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 06:24:26 pm by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #899 on: September 21, 2019, 04:56:57 pm »

We don't have off peak so I can brush my teeth during the day.

I'm surprised that your electric company doesn't offer off-peak rates. Is it like that just in your area or across the entire USA?
In Ontario, we have 3 time slots how the electricity is charged - Peak (7am-9am and 5pm-7pm), standard - during the day between the peak hours and Off-Peak at night. Weekends are Off-Peak all day. The Off-Peak price is only half of the Peak price. That helps not only to save some money for the homeowners, but also it offloads to some degree the demand during the peak hours.
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