How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science

[jeremyrh]

Right... back then, volcanic eruptions were a big part of it. As they are today.

Umm ... you're aware that different sources of CO2 have different isotope signatures I suppose .... ?

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/how-do-we-know-that-recent-cosub2sub-increases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2011EO240001

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Umm ... you're aware that different sources of CO2 have different isotope signatures I suppose .... ?

Exactly. the  12-C, 13-C, (and to a lesser extent the lack of 14-C) isotopes provide a fingerprint/signature to from where the Carbon originated. Besides that, there are other sources of information (e.g. Beryllium isotopes, and the total Oxygen levels on average, and bookkeeping of man-made Carbon emissions) that basically all tell the same (consistently complete) story. The search term to use is "Stable Isotope ratio Spectrometry". The main ratio's that are important for environmental signatures are 13-C/12-C, 15-N/14-N, or 18-O/16-O .

All was already explained in this video I posted earlier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PrrTk6DqzE&t=13s

And here's a downloadable article/paper on the subject of "Causes of climate change over the past 1000 years":
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Causes-of-climate-change-over-the-past-1000-years-Crowley/04fce3a1a82e8c6bd285f2c0b7cc02f7151cbf56
It demonstrates the role of Greenhouse gasses compared to other "forcings", like solar energy fluctuations. When we eliminate the influence of the other potential forcings, a huge increase due to the burning of fossil fuels remains.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/how-do-we-know-that-recent-cosub2sub-increases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1029/2011EO240001

That link that you added is a good one to explain how to interpret the isotope ratios.

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Goldhammer]

US forest cover is in this USDA pamphlet.  Page 7 has a graph showing the decrease in forest acreage vs. population growth.  It has been somewhat stable since 1910.  Estimate forest coverage in 1630 was 46% of the land area; today it is 33% so there has been a decrease.

[Alan Klein]

US forest cover is in this USDA pamphlet.  Page 7 has a graph showing the decrease in forest acreage vs. population growth.  It has been somewhat stable since 1910.  Estimate forest coverage in 1630 was 46% of the land area; today it is 33% so there has been a decrease.

That's not bad considering the amount of population and land clearing that has occurred to feed the population since then.  Of Course at the end of the day population isthe cause of all these problems. . In fact they're only going to get worse as so many poor people want to move into middle class and demand modern conveniences.

[Robert Roaldi]

That's not bad considering the amount of population and land clearing that has occurred to feed the population since then.  Of Course at the end of the day population isthe cause of all these problems. . In fact they're only going to get worse as so many poor people want to move into middle class and demand modern conveniences.

All the more reason to find less wasteful and more sustainable alternative modes of living.

I just read about a program of urban intensification here in Ottawa. They plan to implement some neighbourhoods where a 15 minute standard must be met. That is, residents should be able to access their usual daily needs, groceries, drug store, etc., within a 15 min walk from home. I, for one, would love to have smaller grocery stores closer to home. And if their apples cost more than the same apples at the big box grocery store at the edge of suburbia, then so be it. You don't save that much money buying those cheaper apples if you have to buy and maintain a second car to get to them. I grew up in a neighbourhood like that in Montreal and it's incredible to me that we gave that up in favour of sitting in cars at red lights for half the day.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

When Karla Marx’ wet dream comes true:

[Peter McLennan]

You mean the same ones who invest billions in alternative energy sources? And lead the research in those areas?

(Paul was referring to the fossil fuel industry)

It turns out that the fossil fuel industry has actually conspired to prohibit the development of alternative energy sources.  Texaco and Chevron were involved in a "catch and kill" operation against the first generation of NiMH batteries, profiting from their use in cameras, but prohibiting their use in vehicles by refusing to sell large capacity, automotive-scale units.  This action delayed the appearance of EVs for nearly two decades and preserved big oil's profits for a similar period.

Surprise, surprise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

[Alan Klein]

(Paul was referring to the fossil fuel industry)

It turns out that the fossil fuel industry has actually conspired to prohibit the development of alternative energy sources.  Texaco and Chevron were involved in a "catch and kill" operation against the first generation of NiMH batteries, profiting from their use in cameras, but prohibiting their use in vehicles by refusing to sell large capacity, automotive-scale units.  This action delayed the appearance of EVs for nearly two decades and preserved big oil's profits for a similar period.

Surprise, surprise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

That's a risky business to do.  Look what happened to Kodak who tried to suppress digital photography to protect their film markets?

[jeremyrh]

(Paul was referring to the fossil fuel industry)

It turns out that the fossil fuel industry has actually conspired to prohibit the development of alternative energy sources.  Texaco and Chevron were involved in a "catch and kill" operation against the first generation of NiMH batteries, profiting from their use in cameras, but prohibiting their use in vehicles by refusing to sell large capacity, automotive-scale units.  This action delayed the appearance of EVs for nearly two decades and preserved big oil's profits for a similar period.

Surprise, surprise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

I'm sure nobody connected to the Trump administration would do something so underhand.  Oh, hang on a mo ...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/24/lawsuit-alleges-exxonmobil-deceived-shareholders-on-climate-change-rules

[Robert Roaldi]

(Paul was referring to the fossil fuel industry)

It turns out that the fossil fuel industry has actually conspired to prohibit the development of alternative energy sources.  Texaco and Chevron were involved in a "catch and kill" operation against the first generation of NiMH batteries, profiting from their use in cameras, but prohibiting their use in vehicles by refusing to sell large capacity, automotive-scale units.  This action delayed the appearance of EVs for nearly two decades and preserved big oil's profits for a similar period.

Surprise, surprise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

Thank goodness for the free market, eh?

[RSL]

Thank goodness for the free market, eh?

You could try the unfree market by moving to Venezuela, Robert. Might be worth the move just to experience the greatly improved lifestyle.

[Robert Roaldi]

You could try the unfree market by moving to Venezuela, Robert. Might be worth the move just to experience the greatly improved lifestyle.

You're misinterpreting. I have never expressed a preference for the various forms of planned economies, Venezuela included. I'm just saying that it's a delusion to think that economies dominated by large corporations with more power than most governments give rise to free markets.

[Alan Klein]

You're misinterpreting. I have never expressed a preference for the various forms of planned economies, Venezuela included. I'm just saying that it's a delusion to think that economies dominated by large corporations with more power than most governments give rise to free markets.

While there are varying degrees of command control by government 95% of the economies of the West are free markets where people and businesses make individual decisions on what they're going to buy and sell. The government has very little to say about it.  If you want them to be freer,  eliminate more government regulations. Don't vote for Democrats who want more government control over businesses and the economy.

[Alan Goldhammer]

While there are varying degrees of command control by government 95% of the economies of the West are free markets where people and businesses make individual decisions on what they're going to buy and sell. The government has very little to say about it.  If you want them to be freer,  eliminate more government regulations. Don't vote for Democrats who want more government control over businesses and the economy.

Tell this to the socialist republic of Iowa that is propped up by ethanol subsidy regulations and government payouts to farmers whether they grow or don't grow stuff.

[jeremyrh]

While there are varying degrees of command control by government 95% of the economies of the West are free markets where people and businesses make individual decisions on what they're going to buy and sell. The government has very little to say about it.  If you want them to be freer,  eliminate more government regulations. Don't vote for Democrats who want more government control over businesses and the economy.

Hardly. If you want a free market you need to go to, oh, say, Somalia.

[Alan Klein]

Tell this to the socialist republic of Iowa that is propped up by ethanol subsidy regulations and government payouts to farmers whether they grow or don't grow stuff.

That's a 5% that isn't part of a free-market. But they're still the other 95% where government isn't involved.

[Peter McLennan]

By far, the relative freedom of markets isn't controlled by the government, Alan. 

[Alan Klein]

By far, the relative freedom of markets isn't controlled by the government, Alan. 

So you agree with me?  Thanks.  Which reminds me of the joke that I think I told in the forum before.  But it's apropos to free markets and competition.  So I'll tell it again.   Just to lighten the conversation. 

So this old woman goes shopping at the butcher and asks him, "I need a pound of chop meat. How much is it?"

The butcher responds, "It's $4 a pound.  But we're totally out of it today."

So the woman leaves and walks down the street to a second butcher.

"I need a pound of chop meat.  Do you have any and how much is it?"

"Oh," says the second butcher. "We got loads of it and it's $5 a pound"

"$5 a pound!," complains the old woman.  "The other butcher only charges $4 a pound."

"Well," says the second butcher.  "When we're out of chop meat, we only charge $3 a pound."

[Alan Klein]

Does anyone actually have the statistics on the Amazon fire?  All the "news" makes it look bad.  AS usual, it's fake news because they're only giving area by how much smoke and carbon monoxide they see.  Well, wind blows smoke and particles over huge areas that are not burning so that proves little.  Just how many acres burned or are burning?

"NASA’s Amazon forest fire map shows just how much trouble we’re in"
https://www.slashgear.com/nasas-amazon-forest-fire-map-shows-just-how-much-trouble-were-in-23588502/

[LesPalenik]

Does anyone actually have the statistics on the Amazon fire?  All the "news" makes it look bad.  AS usual, it's fake news because they're only giving area by how much smoke and carbon monoxide they see.  Well, wind blows smoke and particles over huge areas that are not burning so that proves little.  Just how many acres burned or are burning?

"NASA’s Amazon forest fire map shows just how much trouble we’re in"
https://www.slashgear.com/nasas-amazon-forest-fire-map-shows-just-how-much-trouble-were-in-23588502/

Lot of damage inflicted to both Amazons, one hurt by Bolsonaro and the other by Trump.

In the ongoing trade war with China, Amazon in particular faces a tough road ahead.

That’s not to say tariffs will single-handedly bring down the ecommerce giant—CEO Jeff Bezos has done a pretty good job diversifying—but the small businesses responsible for 58% of Amazon’s physical gross merchandise sales in 2018 rely heavily on Chinese manufacturing.

Unless Trump backs down, first- and third-party merchants alike will start paying higher prices for the goods they import next month. And the odds are fairly good that the additional cost will be passed on to consumers in some way unless those sellers opt to become less profitable or stop offering tariffed goods altogether.

https://www.adweek.com/digital/heres-how-trumps-tariffs-could-hurt-amazon-more-than-its-peers/