Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Global shutter coming  (Read 1118 times)

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6628
    • My gallery on Instagram
Global shutter coming
« on: July 11, 2019, 09:05:41 pm »

I don't know whether it's relevant, but Sigma have just announced a global shutter camera with no mech shutter.

This opens a bunch of possibilities especially for ... Alpa :)

Edmund

Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

SrMi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 226
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 10:55:03 pm »

I don't know whether it's relevant, but Sigma have just announced a global shutter camera with no mech shutter.

This opens a bunch of possibilities especially for ... Alpa :)

Edmund

Sigma says that they’ll have very low rolling shutter. I do not se anywhere global shutter being mentioned.
Logged

TonyVentourisPhotography

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 375
    • Unlocking Olympus
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2019, 01:41:23 am »

Olympus has talked about a coming global shutter...but it’s “not ready yet.”  The sigma is just the usual electronic shutter.  1/15th flash sync.  The new sigma seems like a really great b-roll video camera that can take great stills probably.  It just doesn’t seem designed for specialized photo needs.  I bet it goes. Great on gimbals, car mounts, drones, etc... though. 
Logged
Tony
Unlockingolympus.com (ebooks & blog on getting the most from your OMD & Pen)
tonyventourisphotography.com (Commercial Photography)

mcbroomf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 918
    • Mike Broomfield
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 04:02:54 am »

Why is this in the MF forum?  It seems to me that MF will be the last format to get global shutter when it arrives.

The Sigma fp has a conventional electronic shutter, not global.  See slide 8 for a brief discussion
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9907285861/hands-on-with-new-sigma-fp-a-compact-full-frame-l-mount-mirrorless-camera?slide=8

Also Guillermo's post on thoughts about the low ISO
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=131242.0


Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4102
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 06:40:57 am »

Yes, it’s absolutely coming. But definitely not soon.

I’d guess 5-7 years before it’s in high-end quality still cameras.

For those that want a primer on ES (the current, rolling kind):
https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/phase-ones-electronic-shutter-in-detail/

32BT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3097
    • Pictures
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 06:51:04 am »

Logged
Regards,
~ O ~
If you can stomach it: pictures

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6435
Global shutters: for video yes; for stills not yet
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 12:42:41 pm »

In electronica time from eons ago:

http://www.forzasilicon.com/2014/01/high-resolution-hd-cmos-image-sensors-for-cinema-cameras/
Notably, that is about _video_ cameras. There have been global shutters in some video cameras for many years, but so far they are not suitable for stills, due to their poor DR; a stop or more worse than other sensors.
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6628
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Global shutters: for video yes; for stills not yet
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 01:10:55 pm »

Notably, that is about _video_ cameras. There have been global shutters in some video cameras for many years, but so far they are not suitable for stills, due to their poor DR; a stop or more worse than other sensors.

One stop less than still cameras still ads up to pretty usable DR these days.

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Malina DZ

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2019, 07:53:54 pm »

...At some point it's very likely that most pro cameras will have "global shutters" whereby the sensor itself simply flickers on and off for whatever desired length and thereby can sync without any physical shutter at all. However I predict (only an informed guess mind you) that this will be 3-5 years from now...

My best guess is this post is 3-6 years early. Insightful and on point. But way early.

I do not agree that "Obviously the next iteration of MF sensors will have some kind of implementation of [a true global sensor-based electronic shutter]. My guess is this is more likely 2-3 generations away.

Yes, it’s absolutely coming. But definitely not soon.

I’d guess 5-7 years before it’s in high-end quality still cameras...

My hopes are null for a GS in consumer grade stills cameras. Leaf shutters FTW :)
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4102
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2019, 08:28:44 pm »

Man, time flies!

The only cold comfort here is that if I keep predicting “several years from now” i be right eventually... right??
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 08:44:14 pm by Doug Peterson »
Logged

Malina DZ

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2019, 09:26:50 pm »

Man, time flies!

The only cold comfort here is that if I keep predicting “several years from now” i be right eventually... right??
Yeah, one day they are definitely coming to a local dealer ;D Hope, we are still around to figure why we need them for our daily snapshots.
Logged

D Fuller

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 518
    • AirStream Pictures
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2019, 09:57:29 pm »

Yeah, one day they are definitely coming to a local dealer ;D Hope, we are still around to figure why we need them for our daily snapshots.

There is an interesting electronic shutter technology that Red has used in its Motion Mounts for five years or more that could maybe work in a still camera. I don’t believe it has any effect on DR, but it does absorb a bit more than a stop of light. It would not be an on-chip tech, but does that matter?
Logged
business website: www.airstream.pictures
blog: thirtynineframes.com/blog

Malina DZ

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2019, 10:24:45 pm »

There is an interesting electronic shutter technology that Red has used in its Motion Mounts for five years or more that could maybe work in a still camera. I don’t believe it has any effect on DR, but it does absorb a bit more than a stop of light. It would not be an on-chip tech, but does that matter?
We'll see once FPs hit the shelves, but 1/15s sensor readout is not inspiring in either stills or cine mode.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6435
Global shutter not yet coming for stills
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2019, 04:20:50 am »

@Edmund: yes, clearly one stop (as in raising the base ISO speed by one stop) is often acceptable for video- and cine-cameras, but no way in still cameras. Look at how people obsess over DR measurements and comparisons in fora like this one!

@D Fuller: Red uses a fast rolling shutter with less rather than no “jello effect”; electronic shutter is not the same as global shutter.
UPDATE: my apologies; Red does describe it “soft shutter” as a global shutter, and it is almost but not quite there. It uses a similar idea to something Panasonic is working on—a layer in front of the sensor whose transparency/opacity can be quickly electronically switched—but the effect is not quite simultaneous, so there are still some “temporal artifacts”. My hope is that a layer like this built into the sensor module and with negligible lag will give true non-mechanical shutters usable in a stills camera, and thus eliminate shutter-shock (to answer Malina DZ on why it could help stills photography)

I’ve just noticed that the fp is the first “all electronic, no moving parts” interchangeable lens stills camera. That trend could make it far easier for new and smaller companies to try innovative designs based mostly on outsourced electronic components. Maybe software and ergonomics (good UI and UX) will become more important fields of competition. A shared lens mount like MFT or L would be needed by the smaller players though; lens design is becoming the last most challenging mechanical, “analog” part of camera design and manufacture.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 04:39:55 am by BJL »
Logged

Malina DZ

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Global shutter not yet coming for stills
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2019, 11:04:09 am »

...eliminate shutter-shock (to answer Malina DZ on why it could help stills photography)...
A shutter-shock may be of concern on some cameras at a certain shutter speed, e.g. 1/15s. Its effect is drastically reduced at other SS values. At slower speeds fully electronic shutter already eliminates any shutter induced shock.
While global shutters solve the shutter shock for good, one should also consider at what cost (money & IQ wise). And it does not seem to be a financially wise investment in consumer segment for silicon chip producers, since we don't see them in top tier cell phones or a roadmap for such.
Logged

kers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2374
    • Pieter Kers
Re: Global shutter not yet coming for stills
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2019, 11:35:17 am »

A shutter-shock may be of concern on some cameras at a certain shutter speed, e.g. 1/15s. Its effect is drastically reduced at other SS values. At slower speeds fully electronic shutter already eliminates any shutter induced shock.
While global shutters solve the shutter shock for good, one should also consider at what cost (money & IQ wise). And it does not seem to be a financially wise investment in consumer segment for silicon chip producers, since we don't see them in top tier cell phones or a roadmap for such.
i think you forgot FF ?
Logged

Malina DZ

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Global shutter not yet coming for stills
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2019, 11:43:28 am »

i think you forgot FF ?
Please, elaborate.
Logged

mcbroomf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 918
    • Mike Broomfield
Re: Global shutter coming
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2019, 12:11:16 pm »

Just noticed this "e2v and TowerJazz Start Production of 67MP APS-C Sensor with Global Shutter Pixels"
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2019/06/e2v-and-towerjazz-start-production-of.html

However it's limited to 30 and 60fps, presumably can't offload data any faster.  Although called APSC it's a square sensor aimed at inspection.
I wonder if a 24mp version could run at ~180fps using the same pipeline
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up