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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 113220 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1620 on: February 15, 2020, 09:40:40 am »

... When you tell me that I need to change my way of life, upend our social norms, and ...how did you put it...”pull out all the stops we have”, to fulfill YOUR choices, pardon me when I tell you my choice is to say heck no.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1621 on: February 15, 2020, 09:46:27 am »

What's being proposed here in America lately is socialism and the kind of confiscatory government like they had in the Soviet Union. Americans have maintained their freedoms for over 230 years protected by a written constitution.  Socialism will wind up taking our freedoms away and make us all poor. 

Redistribution is not about helping the real poor.  Our system is taking care of them.  No one is really poor in America if they take advantage of the private and government programs available.  The push for redistribution is really all about taking from others to make average people better off then they are.  It's founded on jealousy and covetousness.  It has nothing to do with poverty.  That's just the excuse to justify it.  Average people just wanting more than they got and wanting to take it from others.  It's stealing. It happens when a people lose faith in a God who takes care of them.  So they start grubbing around taking from others.  They've lost their way.  They've lost their gratitude for what they have and what God has given them. 

kers

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1622 on: February 15, 2020, 09:54:38 am »

...
Screams of freedom generally arise when one group of people decide they want to stifle the freedom of others, like you are doing.  Be it wealth, a way of life or any number of other things where some group of people decide they are going to make new rules to control another. ...
But it is mostly the other way around;
The wealthy group have more freedom and are also in power while making decisions for 'the poor group' that largely benefits themselves to become even wealthier.
That is a world wide problem at the moment even in democratic countries.
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kers

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1623 on: February 15, 2020, 10:00:46 am »

What's being proposed here in America lately is socialism and the kind of confiscatory government like they had in the Soviet Union.
another hyperbole...

Redistribution is not about helping the real poor.  Our system is taking care of them.  No one is really poor in America if they take advantage of the private and government programs available.  The push for redistribution is really all about taking from others to make average people better off then they are.  It's founded on jealousy and covetousness.  It has nothing to do with poverty.  That's just the excuse to justify it.  Average people just wanting more than they got and wanting to take it from others.  It's stealing. It happens when a people lose faith in a God who takes care of them.  So they start grubbing around taking from others.  They've lost their way.  They've lost their gratitude for what they have and what God has given them.
I tend to disagree completely ... there are enough poor people in the States, even people with mulitple jobs that still do not earn enough...
; to say it is their own fault and they are greedy is ridiculous...
and please leave GOD out of this...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1624 on: February 15, 2020, 10:05:26 am »

But it is mostly the other way around;
The wealthy group have more freedom and are also in power while making decisions for 'the poor group' that largely benefits themselves to become even wealthier.
That is a world wide problem at the moment even in democratic countries.

But the proof in America is that we're the richest country in the world and have the most freedoms. People from around the world are dying to get here.  So throughout all our faults, more people have done better than ever before in history.  That's the bottom line.  Changing it would be playing with fire.   

RSL

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1625 on: February 15, 2020, 10:07:01 am »

I tend to disagree completely ... there are enough poor people in the States, even people with mulitple jobs that still do not earn enough...

How much is "enough", Pieter?

It would be interesting to know where you're getting your information about the States. From what you're saying it sounds a lot as if it's coming directly from TV.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1626 on: February 15, 2020, 10:10:47 am »

another hyperbole...
I tend to disagree completely ... there are enough poor people in the States, even people with mulitple jobs that still do not earn enough...
; to say it is their own fault and they are greedy is ridiculous...
and please leave GOD out of this...
So your answer to economic problems is redistribution.  How about less taxes and less regulation?  That's what helping us now with less unemployment, better jobs, and higher wages.  So your answer is to steal Bloomberg's money.  How about all the jobs and wealth he's created throughout the world with his Bloomberg Media empire?  How many jobs will the government create?   

Also, why should I leave God out of it.  It's my opinion.  You have yours.  I have mine.  Maybe if we had more faith, we wouldn't being doing what we do to each other.   

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1627 on: February 15, 2020, 10:20:48 am »

Also, why should I leave God out of it.  It's my opinion.  You have yours.  I have mine.  Maybe if we had more faith, we wouldn't being doing what we do to each other.   
Maybe if we had a loving God, we wouldn't have poverty...or climate change.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1628 on: February 15, 2020, 10:31:00 am »

Maybe if we had a loving God, we wouldn't have poverty...or climate change.

He is just punishing us for communists ;)

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1629 on: February 15, 2020, 11:00:49 am »

Mice dreaming.

That's why the lottery exists. Some mice get lucky.

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1630 on: February 15, 2020, 11:10:56 am »

Political side, Rob. And I was talking about future children and grandchildren.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/13/21132013/climate-change-children-kids-anti-natalism

"Having one fewer child is far and away the best thing you can do to save the planet"


But I don"t have a political side anymore. I used to be a Conservative until Brexit and the emergence of Boris, who has turned himself into the acolyte and clone of Trump. I think he is even more dangerous than your guy because he has a mind that works and stays on message.

As for the other UK parties, they all fell apart when Brexit arrived on the table: they could not separate constituents and party from national priorities and, consequently, fell into a state of paralysis. Big Brother is alive and well, and unless the "borrowed" votes wake up in tme, it will be too late to do anything about it. The judiciary is now under attack too: control the referee and you win every game. I don't want to believe it but I have no choice.

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1631 on: February 15, 2020, 11:29:20 am »

Rob, you seem to believe that personal wealth is cash that somebody hides in a mattress. Actually, personal wealth amounts to capital. Capital means things like hydraulic presses in a factory. People who make use of capital do it to produce more wealth, for themselves and for others -- otherwise known as "customers." Instead of producing capital, governments who steal personal wealth use it to produce politics rather than more wealth. Check Venezuela to see what happens when governments put a cap on personal wealth.

People who believe there should be a limit on personal wealth desperately need a course in basic economics. Thomas Sowell's book, Basic Economics is a good place to start.


I understand perfectly well that wealth includes machinery and factories etc. Russ, I am all in favour of that, and I have stated from the onset that the more the owners plow back into those things, the better. It is excluded from my pogrom on the über wealthy whose cash, when over the suggested limit, is not doing anything of much good for humanity.

As I wrote, repeatedly, the more businesses these folks open in order to use their pennies, if only to avoid paying them in taxation when over a limit, the better, exactly for the benefit of new employees and the customers for their products and services. I have no fight with that.

Put another way: money invested creating employment is good; money doing nothing but buying gold taps for the loo is also good, as long as you use all those loos. Money above a certain ammount, doing nothing more than sitting banked, is not good. And from a wider perspective than the just the owner's, it sitting banked is a temptation for it to get turned into unsupportable loans that will bring us right back to 2008, which I remember all too damned well.

I think it's quite easy to measure wealth that's not invested: you can start by adding up the value of the houses, the yachts, the cars etc. You can enjoy several of all of those and be well under fifty million bucks.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 11:36:09 am by Rob C »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1632 on: February 15, 2020, 11:30:01 am »

Maybe if we had a loving God, we wouldn't have poverty...or climate change.

What is it that believing in God actually promises you?  Lets just use Christianity for simpliciticy.  If we answer this question then perhaps we can understand if god is loving or not.
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1633 on: February 15, 2020, 11:41:52 am »

How much is "enough", Pieter?

It would be interesting to know where you're getting your information about the States. From what you're saying it sounds a lot as if it's coming directly from TV.


According to Rob: fifty million bucks. Would you feel deprived sitting on that golden egg? Would your personal desires require an even bigger personal egg?

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1634 on: February 15, 2020, 11:59:14 am »

Yes, I choose to accept the limits that are placed upon me by the society I live in, just as I could choose to not accept them.  So what?  I could choose to cause another’s death at a whim.  Again everyone could make that choice.  So what? Choices do not have to be rational or not harmful to society.  That too happens daily.  All one needs to do is to be willing to accept the responsibility of ones actions.  Like it or not that is the nature of the human race.   

Screams of freedom generally arise when one group of people decide they want to stifle the freedom of others, like you are doing.  Be it wealth, a way of life or any number of other things where some group of people decide they are going to make new rules to control another.  But I guess that works out fine for you. 

As for wealth.  I celebrate those who make it big, and the last thing I want to do is tell them what they can do with their money.  Someday thinking like that is going to roll down that slippery slope and entangle the smaller folks below.  Taxes are bad enough, we don’t need wealth police.

When you tell me that I need to change my way of life, upend our social norms, and ...how did you put it...”pull out all the stops we have”, to fulfill YOUR choices, pardon me when I tell you my choice is to say heck no. 



Ah, were it but to fulfil my choices!

Unfortunately, it's not my choices at all but survival of which I write. Does your sense of "freedom" also condone doing nothing to save humanity? If it does, you must have more than a touch of the misanthrope lurking somewhere within you mind. There is a touch of it in mine, too, but not to the point of wishing us all extinction.

I find it difficult to understand that anyone would think personal freedom to sit back and let the world go to hell because of not wanting to do anything to prevent that on principle makes any kind of sense. I don't think I drank of the kool-aid: I don't think you left any!

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1635 on: February 15, 2020, 12:01:13 pm »


According to Rob: fifty million bucks. Would you feel deprived sitting on that golden egg? Would your personal desires require an even bigger personal egg?
But it's not in cash.  It's wrapped up in stock.  Forcing a sale of stock would hurt all the other investors.  Just wait until the stock is sold.  Then it's taxed.  Also, then it's spent so they're be sales tax on purchases, and then add to the economy by buying goods from other companies and give jobs to workers of those companies.  Meanwhile, the stock is doing it's work as it was suppose to by financing a new company or an older company's continued expansion creating more jobs.  Liquidating stock to create cash will hurt everyone.  What you want to do is redistribute investment capital.  That's how economies are destroyed.  Look at Venezuela. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1636 on: February 15, 2020, 12:43:07 pm »

Setting a fifty-million cap on personal wealth hardly strikes me as oppressive: most cats I know would be happy to settle for one million in any of their accounts - in the totality of their accounts, myself very much included in that dream!

The ceiling has to be substantially higher than 50 million. I would say, at least 50 billion.
Otherwise, Mike Bloomberg could not spend 200 million on his anti-Trump campaign. Or Bezos, Musk, and Branson on their space exploration projects.
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1637 on: February 15, 2020, 12:49:56 pm »

The ceiling has to be substantially higher than 50 million. I would say, at least 50 billion.
Otherwise, Mike Bloomberg could not spend 200 million on his anti-Trump campaign. Or Bezos, Musk, and Branson on their space exploration projects.


Les, I think I see several blue horizons there.

Electioneering should be state-funded and limited to that. We try to set limits for it in Britain, but private funds often blow the legal limits, so the guys with the biggest wallets tend to get their way, or if not, at least cause the most trouble.

There's something about politicians...

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1638 on: February 15, 2020, 12:54:11 pm »

What is it that believing in God actually promises you?  Lets just use Christianity for simpliciticy.  If we answer this question then perhaps we can understand if god is loving or not.
If I remember correctly, everlasting life, if God deems you worthy. Otherwise, you burn in hell for eternity. Sort of a carrot and stick approach.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1639 on: February 15, 2020, 01:02:29 pm »

If I remember correctly, everlasting life, if God deems you worthy. Otherwise, you burn in hell for eternity...

Exactly like global warming alarmists.
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