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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 50216 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #280 on: July 28, 2019, 08:29:19 am »

Good for you, Bart. I was pretty sure you'd come up with a chart.

Too bad it isn't a cartoon, like Slobodan likes to post, but then there is little to laugh about the rate of increase ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #281 on: July 28, 2019, 09:20:18 am »

Too bad it isn't a cartoon, like Slobodan likes to post, but then there is little to laugh about the rate of increase ...

Cheers,
Bart
Bart, What do you think about Ray's explanation in his last post how increased CO2 levels can also help the environment?

LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #282 on: July 28, 2019, 09:22:47 am »

Bart, What do you think about Ray's explanation in his last post how increased CO2 levels can also help the environment?

So can manure, but you wouldn't want it foot high.

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #283 on: July 28, 2019, 09:32:17 am »

So can manure, but you wouldn't want it foot high.

No, I would not want mounds of it outside my door. But manure is spread around by farmers to fertilize the ground to help food production.  So it has an important benefit by adding minerals back into the ground.  That's what Ray suggested in his post about CO2.  There are good points about it.

It's also the point I;ve been making.  That there's two sides to a coin.  Climate change supporters only talk about the negative effects of climate change and CO2.  For the public to have a honest understanding of the whole truth about it, the whole truth should be revealed.  Only then can we make intelligent decisions about how to deal with it instead of using it to gain political advantage and force the redistribution of wealth which is what I see here in the USA. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #284 on: July 28, 2019, 09:38:02 am »

Wearable air conditioning. Never mind the Middle East.  They need it in Europe.
https://www.esquireme.com/content/37358-sonys-wearable-air-conditioner-is-exactly-what-the-middle-east-needs

RSL

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #285 on: July 28, 2019, 09:45:47 am »

Too bad it isn't a cartoon. . .

It's not? ;D ;D 8)
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #286 on: July 28, 2019, 09:46:47 am »

No, I would not want mounds of it outside my door. But manure is spread around by farmers to fertilize the ground to help food production.  So it has an important benefit by adding minerals back into the ground.  That's what Ray suggested in his post about CO2.  There are good points about it.

It's also the point I;ve been making.  That there's two sides to a coin.  Climate change supporters only talk about the negative effects of climate change and CO2.  For the public to have a honest understanding of the whole truth about it, the whole truth should be revealed.  Only then can we make intelligent decisions about how to deal with it instead of using it to gain political advantage and force the redistribution of wealth which is what I see here in the USA.

Sometime, too much of a good thing is simply too much. To continue with the cow output analogy, Netherlands has been for years confronted with overabundance of cow urine, and consequently with excess ammonia on the fields.

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Urine can produce large amounts of the greenhouse gas nitrous oxide after spilling onto the ground, soaking into soils and mixing with manure. Ammonia in the urine can also contribute directly to pollution and drive the creation of harmful algal blooms when it enters water systems. The Dutch government is introducing stricter rules on the ammonia emissions of its dairy sector, which is a crucial component in the nation’s economy.

However, cow urine is only one component in these emissions, with CO2 as well as methane and nitrous oxide from livestock and fertilizers contributing significant chunks as well.

Quote
Urine patches in cattle pastures generate large concentrations of the greenhouse gas nitrous oxide through nitrification and denitrification processes in urine-contaminated soils.[1][2] Over the past few decades, the cattle population has increased more rapidly than the human population.[3] Between the years 2000 and 2050, the cattle population is expected to increase from 1.5 billion to 2.6 billion.[4] When large populations of cattle are packed into pastures, excessive amounts of urine soak into soils. This increases the rate at which nitrification and denitrification occur and produce nitrous oxide. Currently, nitrous oxide is one of the single most important ozone-depleting emissions and is expected to remain the largest throughout the 21st century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_urine_patches

degrub

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #287 on: July 28, 2019, 09:52:42 am »

Yet another reason to reduce industrial meat production or at least force more appropriate waste handling.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #288 on: July 28, 2019, 10:12:31 am »

People are the problem.  Increasing populations just affect the environment.  In Florida, look what the Burmese python has done there in the Everglades?  98% of mammals there have been wiped out since they "escaped" into the wild.   All species change nature to some extent.  Then nature balances it off and life goes on.  Because of our short lifespan,  we can only see a very narrow window of time.  We assume what is now was always before.  So when the environment or climate changes, we immediately think negatively.  Something must be wrong.  But it's only natural processes that are evolving that we, as a member of nature, are part of too. 


While I think we should be good stewards of the environment, we also should not go off half cocked.  A few decades ago I recall how experts were saying population increases will cause world-wide starvation. It didn't happen.  Sure there are pockets where people are hurting.  But those issues are more related to politics and poor distribution rather than not being enough food available.  Let's not overdo the climate change rhetoric.  It's been going on forever.  There are pluses as well as negatives.  Also, there are other important  things to do with our limited economic resources.

Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #289 on: July 28, 2019, 10:28:35 am »

Sometime, too much of a good thing is simply too much. To continue with the cow output analogy, Netherlands has been for years confronted with overabundance of cow urine, and consequently with excess ammonia on the fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_urine_patches

I'm assuming here that the cattle are not in a sustaining and natural environment as in 'grass fed'. I assume they are mainly grain-fed and that large numbers are kept in small fields which wouldn't produce sufficient grass to feed them. Right?
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #290 on: July 28, 2019, 10:32:27 am »

People are the problem.  Increasing populations just affect the environment.  In Florida, look what the Burmese python has done there in the Everglades?  98% of mammals there have been wiped out since they "escaped" into the wild.   

The Burmese pythons are indeed a serious problem. It is most remarkable that they established themselves in Florida in such a short time, just since 2000. Right now, they are still only in Florida, but it's only question of time before they will expand through the entire US south. 

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There is a deadly battle playing out in the Florida Everglades between pythons and alligators. Unlike gators, pythons are not native to Florida. They were first reported in the state in 2000. They came as pets but ended up being released into the wild. Now, pythons and alligators are natural enemies.

https://cbs12.com/news/local/gator-vs-python-a-deadly-growing-battleground-in-the-florida-everglades

LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #291 on: July 28, 2019, 10:46:15 am »

I'm assuming here that the cattle are not in a sustaining and natural environment as in 'grass fed'. I assume they are mainly grain-fed and that large numbers are kept in small fields which wouldn't produce sufficient grass to feed them. Right?

In both environments. To a smaller degree on pastures, which has been going on for centuries, but due to the industrialization of cattle farms, the cows are now housed mainly in confined areas and the urine and manure are trucked out onto the fields. About 25 years ago, I met a Dutch professor from the Wageningen University in Holland who was tasked with a project to dry and solidify the cow urine and find export markets for it. It was a big problem then and surely it is even bigger problem now. Recently, a new idea to tackle this problem was introduced - a cow toilet.

Quote
The innovative company Hanskamp, based in Doetinchem, has developed a cow toilet that collects urine in an effort to reduce ammonia. Designed primarily to ease the ever-increasing regulations on the dairy industry, the CowToilet is an automatic urinal that cows use voluntarily and is designed to collect urine before it hits the floor.

About 90 percent of ammonia emissions come from agriculture, according to Wageningen University and Research in The Netherlands. Excess ammonia emissions are a big deal in Europe; there are national limits in force aimed to reduce gases. In an effort to limit ammonia emissions from the agricultural sector, dairy farmers in Europe are forced to pay big fees to meet ammonia-emission and manure-disposal requirements.

https://www.agupdate.com/agriview/news/business/dutch-invent-cow-toilet/article_d16a86ad-f47b-56b9-aca9-c7c8b10effbe.html
 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #292 on: July 28, 2019, 11:02:51 am »

About that manure...

Problem (emphasis mine):

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It was a whopper of a problem.  Everything was transported by horse-drawn vehicles of one kind or another – people, goods, food – everything.  In cities like New York, the horse dung began to: stink, pile up, overwhelm... The average horse produced about 24 pounds of manure a day.  With 200,000 horses (in New York), that’s nearly 5 million pounds of horse manure.  A day.  Where did it go?

As described in the book Freakonomics:

Quote
In 1898, New York hosted the first International urban planning conference.  The agenda was dominated by horse manure, because cities around the world were experiencing the same crisis.  But no solution could be found.  “Stumped by the crisis,” writes Eric Morris, “the urban planning conference declared its work fruitless and broke up in three days instead of the scheduled ten.”  The world had seemingly reached the point where its largest cities could not survive without the horse but couldn’t survive it either. And then the problem vanished.

LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #293 on: July 28, 2019, 11:40:58 am »

About that manure...
The average horse produced about 24 pounds of manure a day.  With 200,000 horses (in New York), that’s nearly 5 million pounds of horse manure. 

Interesting angle on the subject. Most probably, all that substance has been transported onto the adjoining fields. I wonder how long that horse era in US cities lasted before the arrival of cars.
Compared with 200,000 horses then, today there are a million and half cars in New York, generating also a great quantity of undesirable waste, such as old oil, used tires, and all kinds of non-recyclable plastics.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #294 on: July 28, 2019, 12:00:59 pm »

Bart, What do you think about Ray's explanation in his last post how increased CO2 levels can also help the environment?

Highlighting a single aspect of a complex system is an oversimplification. Most plants/trees have their specific CO2 optimum, so it's not one-size-fits-all, and also not more is 'better'. It not only benefits food-crops, but also weeds. Plants also need nutrients from the soil. More biomass may deplete soil nutrients. Without nutrients, no growth. More biomass extracts more moisture from the ground. Without sufficient water, no growth. Some leaf biomass can also lead to more runoff and erosion during rain, which can lead to loss of fertile soil and too many nutrients in the water, leading to Algae bloom, and fish starvation for a lack of oxygen.

That's just the Photosynthesis related part. The temperature rise caused by CO2 can lead to droughts and wildfires, or flooding and runoff, and exotic insects that could target the crops (and/or wildlife/humans) without natural enemies. It causes more frequent extreme weather events that could hurt crops but also humans.

Elevated levels of CO2 can be utilized in greenhouses, where all aspects can be controlled. But that already happens.

Excess CO2 also has drawbacks, and the current rate of CO2 growth causes more negative effects than positive ones.

The problem is the rate of change. It's too fast for nature to adapt smoothly, so it will lead to all sorts of disruptions and destruction. we need to reduce CO2 emissions to allow the earth to achieve a new equilibrium.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #295 on: July 28, 2019, 12:11:01 pm »

In both environments. To a smaller degree on pastures, which has been going on for centuries, but due to the industrialization of cattle farms, the cows are now housed mainly in confined areas and the urine and manure are trucked out onto the fields. About 25 years ago, I met a Dutch professor from the Wageningen University in Holland who was tasked with a project to dry and solidify the cow urine and find export markets for it. It was a big problem then and surely it is even bigger problem now. Recently, a new idea to tackle this problem was introduced - a cow toilet.

https://www.agupdate.com/agriview/news/business/dutch-invent-cow-toilet/article_d16a86ad-f47b-56b9-aca9-c7c8b10effbe.html
 

For those who are geoblocked from watching the content, here's the source of this innovation:
https://www.hanskamp.nl/en/cowtoilet

Cheers,
Bart
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #296 on: July 28, 2019, 12:21:31 pm »

If you have a bad lawn, hire some bitches. There is nothing like pooch urine to make your grass grow dark, thick and rich. I sometimes wonder if bottling it might make me a millionaire in the treatment of baldness.

Regarding the Everglades python: in a few years it will mutate to suit its surroundings, and so expect pythons with a venomous bite. As with Australia and rural India, it's nature's way of writing Keep Out notices. There was an interesting docu. on tv recently investigating the problem of snake bite deaths in India. It was horrific, and the programme suggested it was actually a massive underestimation due to such bites often not being reported. I can't recall the exact figure officially cited, but I remember it as around 36,000 a year or so. Apparently, and the film kinda proved it, the king cobra will hold its ground but try to avoid biting you, and then wander off if left in peace.

There was a high-speed sequence of a snake attacking a prosthetic foot used to replicate a person standing on it in the dark. The snake actually did a head/butt, and made its escape rather than bite. Perhaps the experiment was flawed, because by smell, the snake knew it was no foot, and could well break its teeth if bitten.

Apparently, the krait makes a habit of seeking out humans, such as folks asleep, climbing in beside them, biting, and pissing off unseen and unnoticed, the victim dying in his sleep.

I have problems with ants.

:-)

LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #297 on: July 28, 2019, 01:01:35 pm »

If you have a bad lawn, hire some bitches. There is nothing like pooch urine to make your grass grow dark, thick and rich. I sometimes wonder if bottling it might make me a millionaire in the treatment of baldness.

Regarding the Everglades python: in a few years it will mutate to suit its surroundings, and so expect pythons with a venomous bite. As with Australia and rural India, it's nature's way of writing Keep Out notices. There was an interesting docu. on tv recently investigating the problem of snake bite deaths in India. It was horrific, and the programme suggested it was actually a massive underestimation due to such bites often not being reported. I can't recall the exact figure officially cited, but I remember it as around 36,000 a year or so. Apparently, and the film kinda proved it, the king cobra will hold its ground but try to avoid biting you, and then wander off if left in peace.

There was a high-speed sequence of a snake attacking a prosthetic foot used to replicate a person standing on it in the dark. The snake actually did a head/butt, and made its escape rather than bite. Perhaps the experiment was flawed, because by smell, the snake knew it was no foot, and could well break its teeth if bitten.

Apparently, the krait makes a habit of seeking out humans, such as folks asleep, climbing in beside them, biting, and pissing off unseen and unnoticed, the victim dying in his sleep.

I have problems with ants.

:-)

According to my observation, canine urine and especially from the female burns the grass. I used to have two large Bouviers de Flanders (originally of Dutch descent), and after seeing the damage they inflicted to the grass, I kept them away from my lawn. Actually, the male as one would expect, preferred the trees and fences rather then the lawn.  Smaller dogs might not be so destructive, or maybe the grass killing strength / fertilizing effect depends also on the food they eat and type of grass. 

On the other hand, human urine is actually quite beneficial to the lawn and it keeps it green. Before the feminists jump into the frey, it must be said that when it comes to watering the lawn, male urine is more effective and highly desirable. Allegedly, the scent keeps also the cougars and coyotes away from your front yard.

Quote
The UK's National Trust, a national charity responsible for the upkeep of some of the country's most precious stately homes, gardens and parks, is wading into the discussion. And they're likely to upset the feminists as well as the pee-phobic, claiming male superiority when it comes to urine. Staff at the National Trust's Wimpole Hall property are being encouraged to pee on a compost bale, saving the organization water, creating a nutrient rich compost activator to feed the Estate's 400 acres of gardens and parkland, and providing a valuable educational tool for visitors.

https://www.treehugger.com/lawn-garden/is-male-pee-better-than-female-pee-the-compost-conundrum.html
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 01:30:53 pm by LesPalenik »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #298 on: July 28, 2019, 01:06:52 pm »

Highlighting a single aspect of a complex system is an oversimplification. Most plants/trees have their specific CO2 optimum, so it's not one-size-fits-all, and also not more is 'better'. It not only benefits food-crops, but also weeds. Plants also need nutrients from the soil. More biomass may deplete soil nutrients. Without nutrients, no growth. More biomass extracts more moisture from the ground. Without sufficient water, no growth. Some leaf biomass can also lead to more runoff and erosion during rain, which can lead to loss of fertile soil and too many nutrients in the water, leading to Algae bloom, and fish starvation for a lack of oxygen.

That's just the Photosynthesis related part. The temperature rise caused by CO2 can lead to droughts and wildfires, or flooding and runoff, and exotic insects that could target the crops (and/or wildlife/humans) without natural enemies. It causes more frequent extreme weather events that could hurt crops but also humans.

Elevated levels of CO2 can be utilized in greenhouses, where all aspects can be controlled. But that already happens.

Excess CO2 also has drawbacks, and the current rate of CO2 growth causes more negative effects than positive ones.

The problem is the rate of change. It's too fast for nature to adapt smoothly, so it will lead to all sorts of disruptions and destruction. we need to reduce CO2 emissions to allow the earth to achieve a new equilibrium.

Cheers,
Bart

But I was reading that the earth has the equivalent of additional green area twice the size of the US due to CO2 and warming.  That's got to count for something.  It's not all negative.  Trees, grass and all the critters that are supported by it.  My gripe is none of the scientists talk about this. Only the negatives.  The news article and especially the nature programs keep repeating hot hot hot CO2 CO2 CO2 solar solar solar.  Never, nature is expanding in a lot of areas and helping a lot of different species including man.  My men's club invited an environmental scientist from nearby Princeton University to give a speech to our group about climate change and global warming.  He was so frustrating only showing charts that highlighted the negatives.  I thought I was sitting in a political rally.  He reeked from bias.

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #299 on: July 28, 2019, 01:12:42 pm »

If you have a bad lawn, hire some bitches. There is nothing like pooch urine to make your grass grow dark, thick and rich. I sometimes wonder if bottling it might make me a millionaire in the treatment of baldness.

Regarding the Everglades python: in a few years it will mutate to suit its surroundings, and so expect pythons with a venomous bite. As with Australia and rural India, it's nature's way of writing Keep Out notices. There was an interesting docu. on tv recently investigating the problem of snake bite deaths in India. It was horrific, and the programme suggested it was actually a massive underestimation due to such bites often not being reported. I can't recall the exact figure officially cited, but I remember it as around 36,000 a year or so. Apparently, and the film kinda proved it, the king cobra will hold its ground but try to avoid biting you, and then wander off if left in peace.

There was a high-speed sequence of a snake attacking a prosthetic foot used to replicate a person standing on it in the dark. The snake actually did a head/butt, and made its escape rather than bite. Perhaps the experiment was flawed, because by smell, the snake knew it was no foot, and could well break its teeth if bitten.

Apparently, the krait makes a habit of seeking out humans, such as folks asleep, climbing in beside them, biting, and pissing off unseen and unnoticed, the victim dying in his sleep.

I have problems with ants.

:-)
I believe poisonous snakes tend to save their venom for prey that they want dead so they can then eat it.  They're not interested in killing enemies of theirs, just getting away from them is enough.
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