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Author Topic: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control  (Read 1863 times)

Wayne Fox

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2019, 09:05:21 pm »

Current maximum number of frames is 1000.
you’re article claimed “several minutes in bright sunlight.”
 
1000 limit equates to @ 8 seconds at 1/125th, 16 seconds at 1/60th, or 32 seconds if you could get to 1/30th (pretty hard to do in bright sunlight).

A long way from minutes.  To get to “minutes in bright sunlight” would require a limit much higher than that, more like 5-10000.

Not that I’m particularly worried since I imagine I’ll be using exposures more like 1/8th.

Any clue when they’re gonna let this thing out into the wild?


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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2019, 09:42:33 pm »

you’re article claimed “several minutes in bright sunlight.”
 
1000 limit equates to @ 8 seconds at 1/125th, 16 seconds at 1/60th, or 32 seconds if you could get to 1/30th (pretty hard to do in bright sunlight).

A long way from minutes.  To get to “minutes in bright sunlight” would require a limit much higher than that, more like 5-10000.

Not that I’m particularly worried since I imagine I’ll be using exposures more like 1/8th.

Any clue when they’re gonna let this thing out into the wild?

Great question! Since 1/30th is not a shutter speed that I expect to allow for gapless capture, the gaps between frames would space the 1000 frames out such that it still allows around 5-6 minutes max capture.

If minimizing the gaps between captures is important (e.g. subject matter is moving in a non-random way), or if going to very long total exposure times (e.g. 12 minutes in broad daylight) is important, then a single normal ND filter (e.g. 2 or 3 stops rather than 10 or 16 or 20) or a single circularizer polarizer filter should get you down to a shutter speed that provides a ton of flexibility.

But to be clear, since Feature Update 1 isn't out until next week, and because this is a fundamentally new way of working with exposure and capture, I don't think anyone (including R+D) has a full answer on how it will be best used or where the envelopes of performance and best practices will be. I'm excited to see how photographers like you use it, where you find it useful, where you find it useless, and how you get the most out of it. We'll do our best as a dealer to do our own testing and learning, but the thing that makes us smartest is that we listen to our really smart clients! So I hope you'll update this thread when you've had a chance to come to some of your own conclusions.

Personally, I'd also hope to see the limit raised beyond 1000 frames in future releases; if that's important to you as well, make sure to share that with your dealer!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 07:26:00 am by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2019, 07:20:00 am »

I would like to know how can you achieve that, considering the scan time required for each exposure.

Each exposure takes the time it takes, but the time gap btw the end of an exposure and the start of the next one can be very short.

Yes, but you don't capture the entire image at once as if you were using a global shutter. The most you can get is to start scanning the first line of pixels once you finish the last line of pixels of the previous frame, which means you have gaps per line

I can totally understand why you would think this.

But when I say gapless, I mean just that. My example of a car headlights moving through a desert road is a good one example: the line from the headlights will be continuous not dashed.

The sensor is being controlled in a new way for this feature, so from the time a line of pixels rolls on (in the first exposure) until that line of pixel rolls off (in the last exposure), every line of pixels (and every pixel in that line), is continuously exposing. Subject matter movement is smooth and uninterrupted.

The only caveat is that all of the above applies to exposure longer than a specific shutter speed. Right now it looks like that will be 1/4th or longer for the IQ4 150mp.

Not every scene will require totally gapless capture. For example, averaging 2000 frames of a waterfall at 1/30th won’t technically be gapless but since the motion is semi repetitive (as opposed to the car headlight in the desert which is directional and non repetitive motion) the result will be complete silk not meaningfully different than a gapless capture (which could be done if the shutter speed was lowered to 1/4th or slower).

The raws we have in our article, for example, we’re shot at 1/125th and look quite good to me. Only turn, and the experience of our clients, will guide best practices for how to beat use this tool.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 07:23:23 am by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2019, 07:24:50 am »

O and the maximum number of frames has risen since I previously posted about it.

Previously I said a maximum of 1000 frames. It now looks like the maximum will be ~3000-4000 frames with a maximum total length of ~10-15 minutes.

Both numbers (frame count and max total length) are being worked on still so may change before the release next week or may be changed in future releases thereafter. Personally I’d hope for at least 20 minutes max total time.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 07:28:24 am by Doug Peterson »
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alatreille

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2019, 12:56:48 pm »


This is really interesting me.
The IQ4 has been a revelation for me on the Arca RM3di the last 6 months.  The UI has made me so much more mobile and agile than on the old CCD backs. 

Yet, now this comes along and I see amazing usage for both interiors and exteriors of Architecture. 
One thing that would be interesting is how we can actually capture people in use of the spaces  which is a request of many many architectural clients. 

With the already great dynamic range of this sensor, I feel like this might make my 'lighting' bag lighter...

I'm really looking forward to this download next week.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2019, 04:02:40 pm »

This is really interesting me.
The IQ4 has been a revelation for me on the Arca RM3di the last 6 months.  The UI has made me so much more mobile and agile than on the old CCD backs. 

Yet, now this comes along and I see amazing usage for both interiors and exteriors of Architecture. 
One thing that would be interesting is how we can actually capture people in use of the spaces  which is a request of many many architectural clients. 

With the already great dynamic range of this sensor, I feel like this might make my 'lighting' bag lighter...

I'm really looking forward to this download next week.

And I'm really looking forward to seeing what images you make with it, and sharing where it does and does not help you achieve your visual goals!

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2019, 06:33:19 am »

We should have a couple new raws to share today. Our team was out happily shooting away this weekend!

rogerxnz

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2019, 07:57:02 am »

Doug, we can see how excited you are at frame averaging but here are my comments:

—I think you should avoid the phrase "exposure pyramid" (or whatever pyramid phrase you use) because, although pyramids have four faces, they usually look like triangles. I think "exposure square" or "exposure rectangle" more accurately conveys the fourth dimension that you refer to and does so in the same two-dimensional space that "exposure triangle" is in. A pyramid is a three-dimensional object and quite different to visualise than two dimensional objects like squares/rectangles and triangles. I am being picky I know!

—I don't think the sample images at phaseoneiq4.com show any clear advantage between normal and frame-averaged images. Looking at the first sample in your article, the one of the grassy promontory going out into the sea, the left side is the non-averaged shot and the right shot is the averaged one. As far as I can see, the single frame shot is more pleasingly brighter and more "alive" on the grass and the cliffs than the averaged one. Do you agree?

—I can see an advantage in the7-minute averaged shot of the two buildings with blue roofs on a river but I think that is because darkening the exposure gives more contrast and apparent sharpness in this case.

—Can you publish the histograms for each of the shots to show the differences between them?

—Hopefully, Phaseone will publish a thorough instruction guide?
Roger
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Roger Hayman
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elliot_n

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2019, 08:11:30 am »

My seven-year-old Nikon D800 does this, more or less. I use the feature a lot.

The world does not need more blurry-water pics.
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2019, 11:53:26 am »

Sure it does, much preferred to a stop action freeze unless there is something else going on in the image, kayak, canoe, whitewater rafting, etc.

Much more pleasing to the eye, at least for me.  But everyone has their own styles for sure.


Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2019, 12:40:49 pm »

Doug, we can see how excited you are at frame averaging but here are my comments:

—I think you should avoid the phrase "exposure pyramid" (or whatever pyramid phrase you use) because, although pyramids have four faces, they usually look like triangles. I think "exposure square" or "exposure rectangle" more accurately conveys the fourth dimension that you refer to and does so in the same two-dimensional space that "exposure triangle" is in. A pyramid is a three-dimensional object and quite different to visualise than two dimensional objects like squares/rectangles and triangles. I am being picky I know!

Point taken! It's definitely an imperfect analogy. Hard to figure out what metaphors and phrasing to use for something that fundamentally diverges from traditional photographic exposure theory.

—I don't think the sample images at phaseoneiq4.com show any clear advantage between normal and frame-averaged images. Looking at the first sample in your article, the one of the grassy promontory going out into the sea, the left side is the non-averaged shot and the right shot is the averaged one. As far as I can see, the single frame shot is more pleasingly brighter and more "alive" on the grass and the cliffs than the averaged one. Do you agree?

I don't agree at all. Look in smooth surfaces at high magnification and the difference in noise is profound.

Since the ISO 50 frame is already very good (the IQ4 150mp at ISO 50 is already the best standard-capture raw file you can get), the difference is only meaningful in the very deep shadows. But the "very deep shadows" come up frequently in landscape and architectural photography.

—Can you publish the histograms for each of the shots to show the differences between them?


This implies you haven't downloaded the raws, which goes a long way to explaining why you missed the difference in the shadow quality, which, IMO, is not subtle.

Go the IQ4 frame averaging raws and if you want to see the as-captured histogram just create a New Variant.

—Hopefully, Phaseone will publish a thorough instruction guide?

Couldn't speak to that. But DT will certainly be eager to discuss this feature with any and all of our clients who want to use it, both so we can share what we know and so we can learn what they have to teach us!

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2019, 08:50:17 am »

Feature Update 1 is now live!

https://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportMain/Camera-Firmware/IQ

Our support team is working until 6:30pm ET today in the case any of our clients wish to update and have questions.

A reasonable warning: any firmware update of any device (phone, camera, computer etc) carries a very small risk of “bricking” that device. Of course every IQ4 comes with a five year warranty that includes a loaner during any repair or service, but with the holiday weekend upon us I would discourage anyone from updating if they have an important production/job/shoot this weekend. Or if you update, do it early today so we have time to assist you in the (rare) chance of any issue.

Happy shooting everyone!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 08:54:48 am by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2019, 10:13:57 am »

Our support team has the following detailed write up of the install process:
https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/updating-your-iq4-with-the-creative-control-firmware/

BJL

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2019, 10:24:21 am »

Doug, we can see how excited you are at frame averaging but here are my comments:

—I think you should avoid the phrase "exposure pyramid" (or whatever pyramid phrase you use) because, although pyramids have four faces, they usually look like triangles. I think "exposure square" or "exposure rectangle" ...
It’s the exposure tetrahedron! See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tetrahedron.gif
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2019, 10:36:14 am »

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2019, 02:48:34 pm »

Update: the max frame and maximum duration were both raised for the production version of the firmware. With an IQ4 150mp the max frame count is 3600 and the maximum total duration is 2 hours. This is a major improvement from the original 1000 count and 12 minutes originally expected.

vjbelle

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2019, 07:40:21 am »

What impact does frame averaging have on the 'count' of the 4150?  Is only the resulting raw registered in the count or all frames?

Victor
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2019, 07:47:48 am »

Each Frame Average session, is counted as (1) actuation.  No matter the total number of frames used. 

Paul C
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vjbelle

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2019, 09:35:55 am »

Thanks much, Paul.  I only asked as I do not have my 4150 yet...... maybe next week. 

Happy 4th......

Victor
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2019, 10:17:13 am »

Hi Victor,

I wondered the same thing, especially when P1 started talking about 3600 frames possible in a single average.

That would run up the count a bit!.

Looking forward to your feedback on the new back.

Paul C
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