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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #540 on: July 08, 2019, 03:36:50 pm »

What I want to know is how the hell some of y'all stand multi-day cricket matches.   :o :D. Actually, maybe someone could explain cricket to me in general.  For the life of me I can't figure it out, even after reading up on it. 
It becomes clear when you stand in the hot sun baking all day. 

Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #541 on: July 08, 2019, 05:57:36 pm »

What I want to know is how the hell some of y'all stand multi-day cricket matches.   :o :D. Actually, maybe someone could explain cricket to me in general.  For the life of me I can't figure it out, even after reading up on it.


Just like baseball: one guy has a bat and the other throws a ball. When the guy with the ball throws it (without lifting his leg up like a dog about to charm a tree, therefore unlike the baseball stance) the one with the stick thing is supposed to hit it - the ball - as far away from himself as he can and run like hell towards his opposite number at the end of the little regulation path, hopefully, without bumping into him. The poor chap at that other end also has to run along the path towards his partner's wicket (three erect, longer sticks bearing two shorter, horizontal ones above) and if they can only run that run once, it becomes his turn to face the madman with the hard ball. You can understand that cricket provides much incentive to run fast. The more often they can run the better, because each completed run counts as, well, a run, logically enough. Bear in mind that the running is more difficult than it need be, for both men with bats are handicapped with guards, both on their legs and inside their pants. Imagine running trussed like a Christmas turkey! You can make four runs if you hit the ball so that it runs along the lawn and hits the boundary and makes a tiny leap of delight as it stops at the edge, or be awarded six runs if you hit the ball so hard you knock it clean out of the field, much like a home run, I suppose. You also get clapped for your pains.

Whilst these two are running, the side (in the sense of team) that uses the ball instead of the bat thing, has a choice of action: it can catch the ball right off the bat, or throw it at the three little sticks with the two smaller ones above them. Trying to achieve that aim is how the game is started off, unless you count the flipping of a coin of the realm as a vital first step. As the batter is trying to hit the ball unto eternity, he is also trying to guard that set of sticks erected behind him, called the wicket, from being uprooted by said ball, which is more easily said than done, because if he stands awkwardly and the ball hits his leg, he can be accused of being leg before wicket, which can be quite insulting at times, depending how you look at it. That's pretty much a mortal sin, and you get hoofed away in shame.
 
If they, the people with the ball, can throw the ball as the bat people are running and hit the sticks so that one of the top ones falls down (and this is important, so pay attention: it only counts if the guy who is running towards those sticks is not close enough to them to be in, in which case he is out) then the guy with the bat is dismissed, out, gone. Alternatively, if the guy with the bat hits the ball dangerously hard and it flies up in the air threatening one of the other chaps spread around the field, the one threatened is at liberty to catch that ball (I told you it was dangerous) and the guy who hit it is out, just as if one of the small sticks on top of the three longer ones had fallen to the ground. Unfairly, for a gentleman's game, the team with the bats is only allowed to play two players at a time, whereas the other team usually employs eleven at a time. Hence the concept of the uneven playing field, another fine thing that the British Empire has donated to the world.

If throwing the ball at those sticks is done well, it curves right past the chap with the bat and knocks them down, at which point the one with the bat is supposed to turn around in disbelief, pause, adjust the strap of his helmet, put the bat under his arm and walk, with whatever dignity he can summon, right back to the pavillion, often no more than a hut, but a pavillion nonetheless. He may then have a cup of tea. Sometimes, when the two batters, as they are called, are running, one may start to run and the other hesitate or not run at all. In that case, one of them is said to be run out when the ball people send the wickets flying.

Following me so far? Fine! This process of attrition continues until the people with the bats have no more fresh, unused players left in the pavillion whom they can convince to hold a bat. The number of times they have collectively been able to complete the race up the regulation path is counted and that becomes their score.

Then they all depart the lawn and a man weating a floppy hat and carrying several jerseys waddles away too, possibly for a pee. He is called  an umpire, and his job is to be a sort of referee. He stands at the end of the path along which the two with bats have to run, but thankfully, because of his age, he usually does his standing at the end towards which the ball is not being bowled. Oh, did I forget to mention it? The person called the bowler is only allowed to throw the ball with one prescribed arm movement, not just in any old way. He is also not permitted to do unusual things with his ball, which would be called ball tampering, and could get him put out of the game for several seasons (years).
 
After a few minutes, the game starts anew with the ball people taking the part of the former bat people.

When they have all been sent back to the pavillion their total nmber of runs is counted, and the team with the higher number wins. It, "playing the game", is considered one of the four cornerstones of fine character building, and holding the bat straight is thought a good sign of things to come.

All countries should play this game.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:03:14 pm by Rob C »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #542 on: July 08, 2019, 06:16:08 pm »

Actually, maybe someone could explain cricket to me in general.

. . .
. . .
. . .

Thank you.  I knew it had to be simpler than it looks.  (Cf. Mark Twain on Wagner's music: "it's better than it sounds.")

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #543 on: July 08, 2019, 07:25:53 pm »


Just like baseball: one guy has a bat and the other throws a ball. When the guy with the ball throws it (without lifting his leg up like a dog about to charm a tree, therefore unlike the baseball stance) the one with the stick thing is supposed to hit it - the ball - as far away from himself as he can and run like hell towards his opposite number at the end of the little regulation path, hopefully, without bumping into him.

All countries should play this game.
there is a Cricket association here in the Washington DC area and I've seen a couple of matches.  When we visited England in the summer of 1981 there was a test match on the television and within five minutes of watching it I pretty much understood how the game was played and scored.  Can't say that I was terribly interested in following it full time but it's an interesting sport.

When I was a post-doctoral fellow at Cornell in the mid-1970s we had a Fulbright Fellow from England in the laboratory.  He played on our softball team but we had to teach him the proper way to bat and he was initially confused as we didn't play the game with Cricket bats.
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James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #544 on: July 08, 2019, 07:56:46 pm »


Just like baseball: one guy has a bat and the other throws a ball. When the guy with the ball throws it (without lifting his leg up like a dog about to charm a tree, therefore unlike the baseball stance) the one with the stick thing is supposed to hit it - the ball - as far away from himself as he can and run like hell towards his opposite number at the end of the little regulation path, hopefully, without bumping into him. The poor chap at that other end also has to run along the path towards his partner's wicket (three erect, longer sticks bearing two shorter, horizontal ones above) and if they can only run that run once, it becomes his turn to face the madman with the hard ball. You can understand that cricket provides much incentive to run fast. The more often they can run the better, because each completed run counts as, well, a run, logically enough. Bear in mind that the running is more difficult than it need be, for both men with bats are handicapped with guards, both on their legs and inside their pants. Imagine running trussed like a Christmas turkey! You can make four runs if you hit the ball so that it runs along the lawn and hits the boundary and makes a tiny leap of delight as it stops at the edge, or be awarded six runs if you hit the ball so hard you knock it clean out of the field, much like a home run, I suppose. You also get clapped for your pains.

Whilst these two are running, the side (in the sense of team) that uses the ball instead of the bat thing, has a choice of action: it can catch the ball right off the bat, or throw it at the three little sticks with the two smaller ones above them. Trying to achieve that aim is how the game is started off, unless you count the flipping of a coin of the realm as a vital first step. As the batter is trying to hit the ball unto eternity, he is also trying to guard that set of sticks erected behind him, called the wicket, from being uprooted by said ball, which is more easily said than done, because if he stands awkwardly and the ball hits his leg, he can be accused of being leg before wicket, which can be quite insulting at times, depending how you look at it. That's pretty much a mortal sin, and you get hoofed away in shame.
 
If they, the people with the ball, can throw the ball as the bat people are running and hit the sticks so that one of the top ones falls down (and this is important, so pay attention: it only counts if the guy who is running towards those sticks is not close enough to them to be in, in which case he is out) then the guy with the bat is dismissed, out, gone. Alternatively, if the guy with the bat hits the ball dangerously hard and it flies up in the air threatening one of the other chaps spread around the field, the one threatened is at liberty to catch that ball (I told you it was dangerous) and the guy who hit it is out, just as if one of the small sticks on top of the three longer ones had fallen to the ground. Unfairly, for a gentleman's game, the team with the bats is only allowed to play two players at a time, whereas the other team usually employs eleven at a time. Hence the concept of the uneven playing field, another fine thing that the British Empire has donated to the world.

If throwing the ball at those sticks is done well, it curves right past the chap with the bat and knocks them down, at which point the one with the bat is supposed to turn around in disbelief, pause, adjust the strap of his helmet, put the bat under his arm and walk, with whatever dignity he can summon, right back to the pavillion, often no more than a hut, but a pavillion nonetheless. He may then have a cup of tea. Sometimes, when the two batters, as they are called, are running, one may start to run and the other hesitate or not run at all. In that case, one of them is said to be run out when the ball people send the wickets flying.

Following me so far? Fine! This process of attrition continues until the people with the bats have no more fresh, unused players left in the pavillion whom they can convince to hold a bat. The number of times they have collectively been able to complete the race up the regulation path is counted and that becomes their score.

Then they all depart the lawn and a man weating a floppy hat and carrying several jerseys waddles away too, possibly for a pee. He is called  an umpire, and his job is to be a sort of referee. He stands at the end of the path along which the two with bats have to run, but thankfully, because of his age, he usually does his standing at the end towards which the ball is not being bowled. Oh, did I forget to mention it? The person called the bowler is only allowed to throw the ball with one prescribed arm movement, not just in any old way. He is also not permitted to do unusual things with his ball, which would be called ball tampering, and could get him put out of the game for several seasons (years).
 
After a few minutes, the game starts anew with the ball people taking the part of the former bat people.

When they have all been sent back to the pavillion their total nmber of runs is counted, and the team with the higher number wins. It, "playing the game", is considered one of the four cornerstones of fine character building, and holding the bat straight is thought a good sign of things to come.

All countries should play this game.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up, Rob.  Couple of questions...

1) When the batsman hits the ball, he immediately starts running I assume?  Is his partner on the other end *required* to start running?  Why would you not start running?

2) When all of your side is "out," then all of the other side is "out" is than one "innings"?   How man "innings" in a match, or is the number flexible?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #545 on: July 08, 2019, 07:58:50 pm »

... When I was a post-doctoral fellow at Cornell in the mid-1970s...

 ;D ;D ;D

Peter McLennan

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #546 on: July 08, 2019, 09:27:03 pm »

Excellent, Rob.  Thanks for that. :)

Now, could you please explain cricket scores?  Opaque, arcane and complex, they appear to express more than a total of runs for each team.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #547 on: July 08, 2019, 10:51:13 pm »

Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue highlighting the US Women's soccer team.  Check the video towards the bottom.  If they lost, we wouldn't be seeing this.  Congrats to the winners! :)
https://nypost.com/2019/07/08/world-cup-champs-get-sports-illustrated-swimsuit-showcase/

LesPalenik

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #548 on: July 08, 2019, 11:08:52 pm »


Just like baseball: one guy has a bat and the other throws a ball. ...

Rob, I never had any aspirations to understand the cricket game, but I ever do, I will definitely make use of your treatise. Your posts are the greatest resource on this site.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #549 on: July 09, 2019, 03:16:56 am »

Couple of questions...

1) When the batsman hits the ball, he immediately starts running I assume?  Is his partner on the other end *required* to start running?  Why would you not start running?

2) When all of your side is "out," then all of the other side is "out" is than one "innings"?   How man "innings" in a match, or is the number flexible?

1. Not necessarily; in that respect (among many) it differs from baseball. The batsman won't start to run if he considers the ball is likely to be fielded and thrown back to the stumps before the player running towards those stumps (himself or his partner) has reached them and so would be run out. His partner is not "required" to run; if he considers it would be foolish, he can call "no", or something similar, at which point the batsman would return (quickly, usually) to his own crease.

2. A team's innings is its entire turn batting, so to the loss of 10 wickets, to winning by passing the other team's total or by declaration (voluntary end). Test matches are two innings long (each team bats twice, under normal circumstances). Other matches can be just one innings.

Now, could you please explain cricket scores?  Opaque, arcane and complex, they appear to express more than a total of runs for each team.

They're fairly simple. A team on "250 for 7" has scored 250 runs and lost 7 wickets (7 players out).

A team which wins a match "by 6 wickets" has passed the other team's run total and still has 6 wickets in hand (that is, has had only 4 players out).
A team which wins a match "by 110 runs" has bowled out the opposition (taken all 10 of its wickets) and is still 110 runs ahead.

Jeremy
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 03:21:12 am by Jeremy Roussak »
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Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #550 on: July 09, 2019, 08:24:07 am »

1. Not necessarily; in that respect (among many) it differs from baseball. The batsman won't start to run if he considers the ball is likely to be fielded and thrown back to the stumps before the player running towards those stumps (himself or his partner) has reached them and so would be run out. His partner is not "required" to run; if he considers it would be foolish, he can call "no", or something similar, at which point the batsman would return (quickly, usually) to his own crease.

2. A team's innings is its entire turn batting, so to the loss of 10 wickets, to winning by passing the other team's total or by declaration (voluntary end). Test matches are two innings long (each team bats twice, under normal circumstances). Other matches can be just one innings.

They're fairly simple. A team on "250 for 7" has scored 250 runs and lost 7 wickets (7 players out).

A team which wins a match "by 6 wickets" has passed the other team's run total and still has 6 wickets in hand (that is, has had only 4 players out).
A team which wins a match "by 110 runs" has bowled out the opposition (taken all 10 of its wickets) and is still 110 runs ahead.

Jeremy


Jeremy, there is already suspicion enough abroad about English gentlemen that references to "returning quicky, usually to one's own crease" can do little to improve matters.

Errol Flynn didn't help by referring to other men as "sport", either, even though "Flynn" may save the nation's honour by appearing decidedly non-English.

:-)

Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #551 on: July 09, 2019, 08:38:00 am »

Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue highlighting the US Women's soccer team.  Check the video towards the bottom.  If they lost, we wouldn't be seeing this.  Congrats to the winners! :)
https://nypost.com/2019/07/08/world-cup-champs-get-sports-illustrated-swimsuit-showcase/


Bad idea.

At one fell swoop, pride, publicity people and probably money have done the opposite of the stated, feminist intent. They have simply shown that they are every single bit as much "object" as the dancers in Tony Soprano's Bada Bing. If you dig frighteningly intimidating ladies, then even better: takes it to a more rare level. (I enjoy my little bit of tautology now and again! :-) )

Boy, do they look uncomfortable; maybe instinct is screaming no, don't do this thing to yourself!

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #552 on: July 09, 2019, 09:16:11 am »


Bad idea.

At one fell swoop, pride, publicity people and probably money have done the opposite of the stated, feminist intent. They have simply shown that they are every single bit as much "object" as the dancers in Tony Soprano's Bada Bing. If you dig frighteningly intimidating ladies, then even better: takes it to a more rare level. (I enjoy my little bit of tautology now and again! :-) )

Boy, do they look uncomfortable; maybe instinct is screaming no, don't do this thing to yourself!

Rob
Funny what money can do.

Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #553 on: July 09, 2019, 09:44:48 am »

Funny what money can do.

I won't even tell you the pride I have had to swallow in order to earn some of it now and then.

;-)

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #554 on: July 09, 2019, 11:22:08 am »

1. Not necessarily; in that respect (among many) it differs from baseball. The batsman won't start to run if he considers the ball is likely to be fielded and thrown back to the stumps before the player running towards those stumps (himself or his partner) has reached them and so would be run out. His partner is not "required" to run; if he considers it would be foolish, he can call "no", or something similar, at which point the batsman would return (quickly, usually) to his own crease.

2. A team's innings is its entire turn batting, so to the loss of 10 wickets, to winning by passing the other team's total or by declaration (voluntary end). Test matches are two innings long (each team bats twice, under normal circumstances). Other matches can be just one innings.

They're fairly simple. A team on "250 for 7" has scored 250 runs and lost 7 wickets (7 players out).

A team which wins a match "by 6 wickets" has passed the other team's run total and still has 6 wickets in hand (that is, has had only 4 players out).
A team which wins a match "by 110 runs" has bowled out the opposition (taken all 10 of its wickets) and is still 110 runs ahead.

Jeremy

Ah.. OK!   Thanks :).  So let me see if I've got this right...

There are two people on the field on the batting team, and a full side (11 was it?) on the fielding or bowling team.  The "bowler" bowls the ball in an attempt to knock over the wickets opposite him/her (I assume there's women's cricket?), and the batter is trying to both protect the wicket AND hit the ball in such a way that he and his partner on the OTHER wicket can run across to score runs by reaching the crease near the opposite wicket?

Tell me if the following is correct:
 
1) If the bowler bowls the ball past the batter and knocks the wicket down the batter is "out" and is then replaced with another batter.
1a) Can the bowler bowl to either wicket, or is there a batter at only one wicket, and just a runner at the other?   


2) If the batter HITS the ball, he and his partner batter can start running back and forth to score runs (can you keep running back and forth as long as you want?)
2a) If the batter and his partner each score one run (i.e. both make it across to the opposite wicket safely), does the bowler switch sides and bowl to the original batter, or does the bowler stay on the same side and bowl to the guy that was previously the runner from the other end?

3) If the batter and his partner are both running, the fielding team can throw the ball at the wickets in an attempt to knock them down. If a wicket is knocked down BEFORE a batter reaches the crease (it looks like that means that some part of the batter or his stick must be inside the "safe area" from videos I saw) the batter is "out?"

3a) If a batter is out by having his wicket knocked down, WHICH runner is out?  The one heading toward the wicket that made it too late?

4) Why would teams agree to quit?  If a match is a hopeless case?  If so, is that considered an especially humiliating loss (aside from Pakistan/India I guess, where probably any loss is humiliating).

Thanks Jeremy and Rob - I've always been curious about cricket and appreciate the time you're taking to answer basic questions!

 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #555 on: July 09, 2019, 11:54:05 am »

Another old white guy, a progressive,  decides to throw his hat into the Democrat ring for president.  Tom Steyer.
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/452164-dont-dismiss-tom-steyer-hes-the-most-media-savvy-candidate-going

Meanwhile, another not so old white guy decides to drop out. Congressman Eric Swalwell who spent the last two years knocking Trump on CNN grooming the public for his run. Maybe they'll give him a job. 
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-eric-swalwells-campaign-failed/

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #556 on: July 09, 2019, 02:02:57 pm »

Ah.. OK!   Thanks :).  So let me see if I've got this right...

There are two people on the field on the batting team, and a full side (11 was it?) on the fielding or bowling team.  The "bowler" bowls the ball in an attempt to knock over the wickets opposite him/her (I assume there's women's cricket?), and the batter is trying to both protect the wicket AND hit the ball in such a way that he and his partner on the OTHER wicket can run across to score runs by reaching the crease near the opposite wicket?

Yes.

Tell me if the following is correct:
1) If the bowler bowls the ball past the batter and knocks the wicket down the batter is "out" and is then replaced with another batter.
1a) Can the bowler bowl to either wicket, or is there a batter at only one wicket, and just a runner at the other?   

Both are batsmen. The game is divided into overs of six balls each. At the end of each over, the bowler is replaced by another bowler, who bowls from the other end to whichever batsman is opposite him.

2) If the batter HITS the ball, he and his partner batter can start running back and forth to score runs (can you keep running back and forth as long as you want?)

Even if he doesn't hit it; if it gets past the wicket keeper (the rough equivalent of the catcher in baseball), they can run.

2a) If the batter and his partner each score one run (i.e. both make it across to the opposite wicket safely), does the bowler switch sides and bowl to the original batter, or does the bowler stay on the same side and bowl to the guy that was previously the runner from the other end?

No; see above. If the batsmen run a single (one run), or three, they will have swapped ends. Unless it happens also to have been the last ball of the over (in which case the bowling will be from the other end), the batsman on strike will be the one who wasn't on trike the previous ball.

3) If the batter and his partner are both running, the fielding team can throw the ball at the wickets in an attempt to knock them down. If a wicket is knocked down BEFORE a batter reaches the crease (it looks like that means that some part of the batter or his stick must be inside the "safe area" from videos I saw) the batter is "out?"

He must have something on the ground inside the crease in order not to be out, yes. Usually, if he's in danger of being run out, he will run with his bat stretched out in front of him and aim to ground the tip.

3a) If a batter is out by having his wicket knocked down, WHICH runner is out?  The one heading toward the wicket that made it too late?

Yes.

4) Why would teams agree to quit?  If a match is a hopeless case?  If so, is that considered an especially humiliating loss (aside from Pakistan/India I guess, where probably any loss is humiliating).

No, because time is running short. The match ends at the end of the allotted time (usually the first / third / fifth day). If the batting side is behind on runs but not all out when the time is exhausted, the match is a draw.

So if for example team A has scored 250 in their first innings and team B 200 in theirs, and team A has reached 250 in their second innings (so they have a lead of 300) but time is running short, they might think that's a big enough lead to take the risk of declaring (closing the innings) and putting team B in to bat in the hope of getting them all out before close of play.

Thanks Jeremy and Rob - I've always been curious about cricket and appreciate the time you're taking to answer basic questions!

Welcome. It's much more complicated than either of us is letting on, actually!

There are many ways in which a batsman can be out. Bowled is one (ball hits wickets); leg before wicket (LBW) is another, very common, where the ball hits the batsman's (padded) legs and the umpire judges that it would have hit the wicket; caught, of course, just as in baseball; run out, as we've discussed; hit wicket (hits his own wicket, usually with his bat when attempting a sweep shot to play the ball behind him); and a few more obscure ways too.

Although there are some all-rounders who are very good with bat and ball, most players specialise in batting or in bowling. All must bat, though, so the bowlers tend to bat lower down the order. A good batsman might see several of his team-mates dismissed and find himself batting with a partner who mainly bowls. He'll want to protect him from the bowling as much as possible, so they will try to run a single on the last ball of each over, keeping the specialist batsman on strike.

Stuff like that!

Jeremy
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #557 on: July 09, 2019, 03:05:42 pm »

Lightroom is easier to understand.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #558 on: July 09, 2019, 04:02:57 pm »

... It's much more complicated than either of us is letting on, actually!...

Oh, dear God, really!

Just look at the amount of words used to explain it.

Enter soccer: there is a boy, there is a ball, there is a goal... go get it in. End of story!

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #559 on: July 09, 2019, 04:45:04 pm »

Oh, dear God, really! Just look at the amount of words used to explain it. Enter soccer: there is a boy, there is a ball, there is a goal... go get it in. End of story!
Some people enjoy games with more complex rules than soccer. Not everything needs to be simple-minded. It is like criticizing chess because it is not checkers. I can't stand to watch professional soccer - all those player rolling around on the field faking injuries is infantile. And of course, nothing happens, which is why all the fans get drunk.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 05:43:00 pm by faberryman »
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