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Author Topic: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other  (Read 42407 times)

Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2019, 04:27:35 pm »

Too late, James! The slug's out of the gun!

:-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2019, 04:50:38 pm »

Again - for the fourth time - I said no such thing....


Sorry, James, you said exactly that. Maybe you didn't mean it like that, but that's what you said.

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...abrogates our moral responsibility to work beyond our biology...

There is no other way to interpret the above sentence other than to mean that if conservatives do not act beyond our biology, they are immoral.

I am pretty sure you didn't mean that conservatives are immoral, but it surely sounds like that.

Having said that, my 2 cents on the issue: sounds like the usual psychobabble drivel trying to retrofit end results (political) with personality traits.


Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2019, 04:57:00 pm »


Sorry, James, you said exactly that. Maybe you didn't mean it like that, but that's what you said.

There is no other way to interpret the above sentence other than to mean that if conservatives do not act beyond our biology, they are immoral.

I am pretty sure you didn't mean that conservatives are immoral, but it surely sounds like that.

Having said that, my 2 cents on the issue: sounds like the usual psychobabble drivel trying to retrofit end results (political) with personality traits.


Not necessarily so.

I can read that sentence to imply that the "moral responsibility" is our own, not of a second or third party.

As for worrying about the morality of any political party - be real! Morality of that kind was ever abandoned on election. The moral high ground is for electioneering, not for governing.

Rob

OmerV

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2019, 06:44:31 pm »

I used to watch Firing Line when William Buckley ran it, and while he was adamantly conservative, he clearly had considered ideas and opinions other than his own. It was not a "moral" problem for him.

He was a good writer also. Read his book Atlantic High.

RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2019, 07:58:46 pm »

Absolutely, Omer. He was a brilliant guy. I always loved it when somebody he was discussing something with would break in on him and he'd just keep on talking and ignore the interruption. Often his opponent was too stupid to get the message, but sometimes it worked.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2019, 08:37:04 pm »

Again - for the fourth time - I said no such thing.  I explained that my recollection of (part of) Haidt's theory is that certain aspects of our worldview are evolutionarily driven, and are "baked in" so to speak, and I used conservatism as a portion of that content because, as Joe said, that's what Haidt was examining originally.  I then said that to leave it at that (i.e. to claim biological imperative and then throw our hands up and say, "oh well!" abrogates our moral responsibility to work beyond our biology - to take advantage of our unique position of being self aware and aware of others - to utilize the benefit our sentience. 

Joe's suggestion that substituting "Intellectual" for "moral" might be a better choice is fine.  I don't think it should be necessary, but if it eliminates a trigger word, fine by me.

Clear?

I'm feeling better already.  I'm no longer immoral.  Instead I don't have the intellectual brain power to think beyond my body.  I'm just some knuckle dragging Neanderthal responding to my biological drives with no cranial room to consider my fellow man.  Oh, so refreshing. 

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2019, 08:50:18 pm »

I'm feeling better already.  I'm no longer immoral.  Instead I don't have the intellectual brain power to think beyond my body.  I'm just some knuckle dragging Neanderthal responding to my biological drives with no cranial room to consider my fellow man.  Oh, so refreshing.

 ::)

Huh.  It seems that Haidt is exactly right.  The conservatives are bundling together in a shared sense of moral offense, Joe the libertarian is trying to explain/refine the statements all rationally, and the liberal, me, has not a single freaking clue what you're on about and really just thinks you should get over it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 09:02:12 pm by James Clark »
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James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2019, 08:58:06 pm »


Sorry, James, you said exactly that. Maybe you didn't mean it like that, but that's what you said.

There is no other way to interpret the above sentence other than to mean that if conservatives do not act beyond our biology, they are immoral.

I am pretty sure you didn't mean that conservatives are immoral, but it surely sounds like that.



No, no, no.  *Haidt* was searching for reasons why conservatives thought a certain way.  One conclusion was evolutionary biology, and further, he conceded that there must, by definition, be some inherent value if we've evolved that way.  Kinda circular, but whatever - this is a 2 sentence summary.... 

Anyway, my comment was that simply ascribing the disconnect to biology is a cop-out and that we have a "moral responsibility" to take advantage of the gift of self awareness that has been given to us.  It's not immoral to be conservative (or liberal, or libertarian.  Well, maybe it's *Amoral* to be libertarian ;) ) -  it's not *immoral* to be anything in this context.  It's *correct* (i.e a moral imperative) for us to question our biology and how it causes us to relate to our fellow humans, otherwise what's the point of sentience?

If you want to extend that to infer that I think choosing NOT to self-assess makes one immoral, I can live with that (I'd probably even agree with/admit to  that), but it's got nothing do with being conservative or not.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 09:03:33 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2019, 09:22:26 pm »

No, no, no.  *Haidt* was searching for reasons why conservatives thought a certain way.  One conclusion was evolutionary biology, and further, he conceded that there must, by definition, be some inherent value if we've evolved that way.  Kinda circular, but whatever - this is a 2 sentence summary.... 

Anyway, my comment was that simply ascribing the disconnect to biology is a cop-out and that we have a "moral responsibility" to take advantage of the gift of self awareness that has been given to us.  It's not immoral to be conservative (or liberal, or libertarian.  Well, maybe it's *Amoral* to be libertarian ;) ) -  it's not *immoral* to be anything in this context.  It's *correct* (i.e a moral imperative) for us to question our biology and how it causes us to relate to our fellow humans, otherwise what's the point of sentience?

If you want to extend that to infer that I think choosing NOT to self-assess makes one immoral, I can live with that (I'd probably even agree with/admit to  that), but it's got nothing do with being conservative or not.

I'm not quite sure I follow your entire point.  But I'll accept you didn;t mean conservatives were un-thinking or immoral just on their basis of their biology or conservatism.  Now we can be friends again.  :) 

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2019, 09:46:26 pm »

I'm not quite sure I follow your entire point.  But I'll accept you didn;t mean conservatives were un-thinking or immoral just on their basis of their biology or conservatism.  Now we can be friends again.  :)

All good.  Truly, I was not trying to negatively generalize about conservatives, nor do I believe that the fact that one is conservative means one is immoral or unthinking.

Have a good night, Alan :)

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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2019, 10:28:23 pm »

Well, the Democrat debates are going on in the background.  I can't tell any difference between policies.  They all sound pretty much the same.At the end of the debate, you won;t remember who said what.  The key to winning the nomination and presidency is which one of these candidates looks like he or she can stand toe to toe with the Kim's and Xi's of the world, even the leaders of our allies in NATO and know they're not going to give away the store.  Americans don't want a policy professor.  They want a leader who can be tough in a tough world. They have to be able to do that or they won't beat Trump. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2019, 11:12:25 pm »

While Facebook, Google and Twitter are still perplexed about how to control hate messages on their platforms, the Ravelry knitting site (with 8 millon members)  just banned posts supporting the Trump Administration.

Quote
Ravelry, a popular social network and online community for knitters and other needleworkers, has banned posts in support of President Donald Trump, saying his administration is “undeniably” supportive of white supremacy.

https://time.com/5613345/ravelry-knitting-trump-ban/

I think, they should stick to knitting.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2019, 03:39:32 am »

Immorality happens when you break God's law, not man's. 

Jeremy, I never said that non-believers are bereft of morals.  I said the opposite.  Please see my earlier post #32.

It is obvious that no other interpretation of the text I quoted is available; and it's a despicable and offensive stance.

Jeremy
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2019, 08:39:25 am »

It is obvious that no other interpretation of the text I quoted is available; and it's a despicable and offensive stance.

Jeremy
Jeremy.  I never intended for my words to hurt you or anyone else.   I thought I said that everyone can live morally, whether conservative, liberal, believer, agnostic or atheist.  I should have chosen my words more carefully.  For that I'm sorry.  Please accept my apologies.  Alan.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2019, 09:33:22 am »

Well, the Democrat debates are going on in the background.  I can't tell any difference between policies.  They all sound pretty much the same.At the end of the debate, you won;t remember who said what.  The key to winning the nomination and presidency is which one of these candidates looks like he or she can stand toe to toe with the Kim's and Xi's of the world, even the leaders of our allies in NATO and know they're not going to give away the store.  Americans don't want a policy professor.  They want a leader who can be tough in a tough world. They have to be able to do that or they won't beat Trump.

It's been rather interesting reading the follow ups, and it appears there is only two real choices for the Dems, Joe Biden and everyone else.  I cant see either option working out for the Dems, but give a higher chance for Joe. 

The two main issues the Dems have with Trump is the economy is booming (and 71% of Americans think so) and Trump, for all intents and purposes, is a centrist.  Now most of his policies are center right, but quite a few are center left, and with all of them, he is on the popular side.  If you don't believe me, just look at the polling.  Running against both of these is going to be hard. 

In the case of Joe Biden, most think he is electable since he too is a centrist.  For anyone else, I may agree.  However, if Biden wins, he is going to limp across the finish line damaged goods.  The progressives are hitting him so hard that what happened to Hillary, namely the progressives abandoned her, is going to happen to Biden.  Not to mention he is a walking talking gaffe machine.  Sure, Trump says some pretty wacky stuff, but so does Joe.  He has been playing it safe right now, limiting off the cuff press interactions, but eventually he is going to have to interact more.  This is going to produce a ton of gaffes that the Rubs will take full advantage of.  Not to mention, his stance on China the majority of the country disagrees with and he was part of an administration that over saw the most anemic recover in decades. 

Insofar as everyone else, they have moved so far to the left they are un-relatable to the general electorate, just like Romney predicted after Trump won.  Look at their policies.  Open borders, yes I know he said decriminalizing illegal border crossings, but that is essentially the same thing and impossible to argue against.  Outlawing all private health coverage while implementing a single payer system.  I do have to hand it to Bernie though; he's the only one who is being somewhat honest about how taxes will go up for everyone, even saying "people in this country would be delighted to pay more in taxes ..."  Everyone else has been mum on this.  Late-term abortions, I may be pro-choice, but the majority of the country is against late-term abortions.  Many have double downed on slavery repatriations, which is incredibly unpopular.  These are all policies that the majority of the country are against, emphatically, especially in the swing-states who really decide the election. 

Now before anyone brings up polling, all polls for president right now are meaningless.  Most Americans really don't fully understand the policy positions of the Dems, and when those policies start hitting home, those polls are going to change.  On top of that, all of the polls that show a 10 point gap between Trump and a hypothetical Dem are of the general public, not the general electorate.  If you look at all of the polls and go beyond that main figure, the numbers only show an 2 point average difference for registered voters for the same question.  On top of this, we all know it is the electoral college that matters, not a popular vote.  None of the polls are quantifying this in the polling, and they more then likely will not since it would make the polling much more complex and costly.  It is also too early to start state by state polling, so we don't really know how the swing states are feeling. 

If you still disagree with me, look at the recent news ratings.  Fox News has been consistently the top rated national news channel by a fair amount.  Tucker Carlson has been consistently the top rated national news show by a fair amount.  This should give you an idea of where the pendulum is current swinging. 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 09:57:27 am by JoeKitchen »
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RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2019, 09:42:24 am »

As somebody pointed out this morning, the Democrat "debates" have resulted in a winner: Trump.
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James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2019, 10:38:54 am »

As somebody pointed out this morning, the Democrat "debates" have resulted in a winner: Trump.

Russ, the democratic field could be Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, and the platform could be guaranteed eternal life and harmony for all mankind, and you'd still be a Trump guy, all the while complaining that Jesus wants to raise taxes to help the undeserving, Joseph overstayed his visa, and Mary was just trying to have an anchor baby.   ;D
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RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2019, 10:45:13 am »

Well, James, you won't tell us where you live or how old you are, so as far as I know you may be an eight year old Cambodian. That would sort of fit with your post. It's not that I'm a "Trump guy," it's the absurdity of the "debate" and the people in the "debate." If this is the best the Dems can do, Trump's a shoo-in next year.
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James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2019, 10:52:47 am »



If you still disagree with me, look at the recent news ratings.  Fox News has been consistently the top rated national news channel by a fair amount. 

Not correct.  Fox has been the top rated *cable* news network, but that's nothing new.  Fox concentrates certain viewers, the likes of MSNBC and CNN and others split the "other side," and the cable news channels in general are dwarfed by the legacy broadcast news shows -(ABC's world news gets something like 7 million viewers, and that's just one major network) they just don't get the attention because they're not oriented toward being outrageous.

Also, Maddow runs relatively even with Hannity and Tucker, give or take.
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James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2019, 10:56:53 am »

Well, James, you won't tell us where you live or how old you are, so as far as I know you may be an eight year old Cambodian. That would sort of fit with your post.

Cambodia is apparently 97% Buddhist, so, no, it wouldn't.  At all.  How can you be so wrong about so much so often?  It's truly a mystery :)
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