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Author Topic: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video  (Read 13607 times)

neil snape

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2019, 11:23:57 am »

A few notes on the Z9.
I love technology, especially the creators that are trying to do better with every release.
As much as every turn of the Z3200 was amazing every time, this printer or at least the one i had was not.
Does it clog? I had to let it sit for long periods as there were technical issues. It did clog more often within periods of non use than the Z3200 series. Was it hard to elevate? Non  targeted head cleaning from the results of a diagnostic print always solved missing lines.
Colour permanence. The ink set is different thus testing is required to say with certainty how long the inks singular or in overprint combinations will last. I'll assume due to the fact HP prided themselves on perhaps the best numbers for colour printing that it will remain stable or surpass the Z3200 inkset.
Quiet: yes it sleeps correctly and all but early morning maintenance schedules could wake you if you are in the same room. I suggested that HP revise their CRON tasks according to time zone. Who knows, they have listened before.
Is it worth replacing a Z3200 or Canon or Epson. Most of the advantages of HP remain. Cheaper easily replaced print heads. No swap black inks or waste. Built in i1 in the + series. This printer once the spool file is received is the fastest In have seen. IF you have the vertical cutter it must be a great production printer, rather than my way of using long straight edges and cutters!
Maintenance is super simple, I see nothing shocking about that. Although if they are still using the neoprene drive belts then you'll have to be prepared to completely dissemble the printer to change one drive belt. I have no way of knowing the composition of the belt. In the Z3200 3100 and 2100 it was a cheap part that required a lot of work, even then a technician would only be able to reset via hardware the necessary control checks like head firing!
It is a vey nice looking printer, very economical, quiet, fast, and efficient. The unit I had ( sending it back today) was NOT without problems though. I am waiting for a promised replacement but no confirmation. If and when I do, I'll write and post a review ASAP.
Feel free to ask any questions.

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Mark Lindquist

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2019, 12:24:05 pm »

A few notes on the Z9.
I love technology, especially the creators that are trying to do better with every release.
As much as every turn of the Z3200 was amazing every time, this printer or at least the one i had was not.
Does it clog? I had to let it sit for long periods as there were technical issues. It did clog more often within periods of non use than the Z3200 series. Was it hard to elevate? Non  targeted head cleaning from the results of a diagnostic print always solved missing lines.
Colour permanence. The ink set is different thus testing is required to say with certainty how long the inks singular or in overprint combinations will last. I'll assume due to the fact HP prided themselves on perhaps the best numbers for colour printing that it will remain stable or surpass the Z3200 inkset.
Quiet: yes it sleeps correctly and all but early morning maintenance schedules could wake you if you are in the same room. I suggested that HP revise their CRON tasks according to time zone. Who knows, they have listened before.
Is it worth replacing a Z3200 or Canon or Epson. Most of the advantages of HP remain. Cheaper easily replaced print heads. No swap black inks or waste. Built in i1 in the + series. This printer once the spool file is received is the fastest In have seen. IF you have the vertical cutter it must be a great production printer, rather than my way of using long straight edges and cutters!
Maintenance is super simple, I see nothing shocking about that. Although if they are still using the neoprene drive belts then you'll have to be prepared to completely dissemble the printer to change one drive belt. I have no way of knowing the composition of the belt. In the Z3200 3100 and 2100 it was a cheap part that required a lot of work, even then a technician would only be able to reset via hardware the necessary control checks like head firing!
It is a vey nice looking printer, very economical, quiet, fast, and efficient. The unit I had ( sending it back today) was NOT without problems though. I am waiting for a promised replacement but no confirmation. If and when I do, I'll write and post a review ASAP.
Feel free to ask any questions.

There are still a few issues to be worked out and HP has been diligently working on all of them.  Good news is that the carriage belt is of a much higher quality and is thicker and sturdier than what is in the Z3200's.
One unfortunate issue is that the embedded spectrophotometer allows for making ONLY 464 patch target profiles and no opportunity to make extended profiles independently like the Z3200's allowed.
We're hoping that HP will address this issue in the future and possibly bring back APS (but frankly just opening up the capability to make extended profiles like the previous Z's would be good enough).
One particularly interesting feature of the Z9+ is the job queue.  It is now totally browser based - you are redirected to a separate ip address where many features are available, one of which is the job queue itself, complete with images of all jobs printed.  Many settings for the printer can be changed from within the Job queue proper, as well.
There have been something like 10 or more firmware updates since the beginning of this Z9+ build.  With each update, the printer improves significantly.
Unquestionably, this is a smoking fast printer.  The spectrophotometer works flawlessly and moves at an amazing speed, so making custom profiles is simple and easy, and fast.
Wilhelm is coming out with ratings soon and Aardenburg is beginning to start on a few papers, particularly Moab Entrada Natural 300 Gsm, and a few others.
It's looking like HP has achieved another breakthrough similar to the Z3200 Vivera Inks with their new Vivid inkset and the dual droplet technology.  Once testing is completed we'll know the results.  I've been saying all along that HP would knock it out of the park in this area.  Color science is their specialty and there is no doubt in my mind that they will remain "King of the Hill" as far as longevity is concerned.

I have heard that there were problems with earlier models in regard to clogging, etc., but I have not experienced any issues at all, not even in the slightest. Generic printheads is a major step forward. Just keep one or two on hand and problem solved for the most part.

One issue of concern to me is that it seems only Gloss, semi-gloss, and pearl papers are eligible for advance paper calibration.  So far the option to calibrate paper advance on heavier matte papers is unavailable.  This is of course somewhat remediated by the choices made in defining the paper through the specific preset and changing paper characteristics, such as star-wheels up, etc.

Additionally, there no longer is the ability to define the amount of Gloss Enhancer in a preset.  It seems that they have determined what is optimal for each paper and that's that.

As with all HP photo printers, this one is not without quirks but you soon get used to them.

Sheet Paper loading is still a pain, and in some ways better than with the Z3200, in some ways worse. Let's face it.  This is a roll printer - these printers all are, and sheet loading is secondary.  It's a pity HP did not listen when I explained at length and sent plans for a mockup tray.  One improvement is the rear loading platform in the back, which is a metal surface with lines indicating loading paper path. It MUST be accessed from behind the printer, which means walking around to the front of the printer to make choices required by the console.  They could easily have made the entire console invert itself so it could be read from the back, but that's another area I made suggestions that were not addressed.

In every way, this being a ground-up new build, it's somewhat unfair to make comparisons to the Z3200, although this is inevitable. Overall, hands down, the Z9+ wins in almost every area, but the Z3200ps is a tinkerer's dream, can be fixed, and has a long standing history of best in class print longevity.  With the Z3200, one can create a tiff target that can be printed on the Z9+ then read through the Z3200's spectrophotometer.  I have done this - made an Aardenburg 10445 patch target ICC profile for the Z9+ using the Z3200ps to scan, and finally using Argyll to created the ICC profile.  Of course this could be done with any printer in concert with the Z3200ps, but I have to admit that HP really nailed it on the 464 patch target that resides in the Z9+. It is very accurate and mostly adequate.

All in all, the more recently manufactured Z9+units, particularly with firmware upgrades, appear to be stable and reliable, although not without bugs which are continually being worked on.

I'm doing extensive testing and have been compiling information about the pro's and con's, but it takes time. So far so good, with a few exceptions.

Mark
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2019, 12:34:48 pm »

Thanks  for your report on the Z9, Mark. Sounds like a winner.
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glyph

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2019, 01:10:21 pm »

You time to evaluate and share your findings with others that have a keen interest in this printer is greatly appreciated, Mark.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2019, 12:28:57 am »

Thanks a lot Mark.

This printer seems a lot more promising now than a few months ago.

It still a bit surprising to me to see the time needed from announcement to actual maturity. This printer feels like it was announced at least one year too early.

Cheers,
Bernard

deanwork

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2019, 10:39:57 am »

Mark, Thank you so much for all your diligent work digging into this new printers capabilities. As far as I can see, you are the only one out there really communicating what’s going on with them. For a whole year it seemed like they were in the beta stage. I hope HP appreciates your efforts. They should.

It seems like this dual drop tech is not a myth, but the real thing. Speed of course is what the world craves these days and that is one master they have to serve. As we have always known, their hardware always seems to be initially ahead of the software to keep up with it. I ,like you, would be thrilled if they integrated the APS capability of the Z3200 into the Z+ series.

Do they offer a take up reel for doing mass production editions. You should be able to set up a big job and let it print while you sleep.

I love the feature of the universal head design where you can have  a head on hand at all times that will function in any slot. That’s huge.

I remember seeing your design of the sheet paper feed tray and it was a mistake for them not to take that seriously. How many times have we mentioned that in the last 12 years? That was one of the very first things we suggested to them at Photo Expo when the Z3100 was released.

Anyway, I have always used 8.5x11 sheets to proof work before installing the rolls. My solution is to have a box of totally flat and totally even dimension sheets ready for proofing. If they are at all curled or uneven forgetaboutit. I have an accurate paper trimmer and dry mount press to make them with. Without that, having a box of sheet paper of the same media should really solve that issue for the most part,  once you get used to it. Hope the Z9+ prints even borders on sheets : -) . I’m still dealing with that on the Z3200.

John




Thanks a lot Mark.

This printer seems a lot more promising now than a few months ago.

It still a bit surprising to me to see the time needed from announcement to actual maturity. This printer feels like it was announced at least one year too early.

Cheers,
Bernard
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kers

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2019, 12:48:51 pm »

+1
Many thanks for the valuable information regarding the printer.
The extra thick belt is a very welcome replacement; it was one of the bottlenecks, allthough new types lasted longer.
How is it possible that they have not found a good way to load sheets ?
I always put my sheets in straight at the rolls entrance;
I agree that with doing calibations ( like printhead allignment) you better use the paper as flat as possible.
My calibrations went all wrong when i used the last part of my roll.
Mark are there similar parts in the z9+ compared tot the Z3200? Or is it an all new machine?
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Panagiotis

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2019, 12:41:50 am »

My calibrations went all wrong when i used the last part of my roll.

Isn't there vacuum support?
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2019, 01:10:38 pm »

John N, Glyph,
Thanks guys - appreciate it-

Bernard - I understand what you're saying.  I can speculate about why HP does what they do, but in the end, I really can't say and I can't speak for them in this regard.
Assuming that the bottom line (money) is always king for corporations, it could be that there are factors we don't know anything about in terms of marketing strategies, demographics, target priorities, deadlines, etc., that HP deals with on a daily basis that may have had and are still having on how they've been dealing with this roll out.  It also could be, that they're working on improvements which because of a new technology and inkset, they're working to make improvements that could be coming slowly.  Who knows.

Like I have said, They could have just caused the Z3200 Series to be the end of the line for HP fine art printers and just focused on poster and banner printing.
In this regard, I feel we're all fortunate that they are continuing to develop the fine art printing segment of their market and that aspect of this printer which is extremely capable...in many areas, as well.

Mark
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2019, 01:41:22 pm »

Mark, Thank you so much for all your diligent work digging into this new printers capabilities. As far as I can see, you are the only one out there really communicating what’s going on with them. For a whole year it seemed like they were in the beta stage. I hope HP appreciates your efforts. They should.

It seems like this dual drop tech is not a myth, but the real thing. Speed of course is what the world craves these days and that is one master they have to serve. As we have always known, their hardware always seems to be initially ahead of the software to keep up with it. I ,like you, would be thrilled if they integrated the APS capability of the Z3200 into the Z+ series.

Do they offer a take up reel for doing mass production editions. You should be able to set up a big job and let it print while you sleep.

I love the feature of the universal head design where you can have  a head on hand at all times that will function in any slot. That’s huge.

I remember seeing your design of the sheet paper feed tray and it was a mistake for them not to take that seriously. How many times have we mentioned that in the last 12 years? That was one of the very first things we suggested to them at Photo Expo when the Z3100 was released.

Anyway, I have always used 8.5x11 sheets to proof work before installing the rolls. My solution is to have a box of totally flat and totally even dimension sheets ready for proofing. If they are at all curled or uneven forgetaboutit. I have an accurate paper trimmer and dry mount press to make them with. Without that, having a box of sheet paper of the same media should really solve that issue for the most part,  once you get used to it. Hope the Z9+ prints even borders on sheets : -) . I’m still dealing with that on the Z3200.

John

Hey John,

Thanks - always nice to be appreciated. Re: the take up reel.  I do believe they do offer a take up reel as an accessory.  Also, surprisingly, they apparently do offer a 42" scanner accessory, which in certain cases could be really cool.  No doubt they are putting that spectrophotometer to work in this regard, although I haven't seen the scanner accessory, but have seen it listed.
Yeah, the paper sheet loading tray is really needed IMO, but they chose not to do it, however I have seen it on other printers they make.  Perhaps in the future, hopefully.

Even borders?  Fuhgeddaboudit man.  Just so very disappointing.  I imagine using Qimage would solve that problem.  I have Qimage, but talk about a strange duck. At my age it's just another learning curve that I forget what I've learned and have to keep relearning. Still, a guy would think that getting borders to print correctly wouldn't be such an issue. We all fool with the center image check mark and fiddle with moving the print image around numerically based on how the Z's print, but man, what a pain.

I've actually made a non-destructible physical addition to the Z9+ I have that allows me to get 99% sheet paper load accuracy.  It's a simple addition which I will probably show eventually. (It's nice to have a machine shop, but this fix can be done by anyone, easily.)

The dual drop technology is powerful mojo, for sure. Just as it took time to really develop serious chops with the Z3200, I'm finding this printer is also capable of going around the track equally impressively, and at breakneck speeds in comparison to the Z3200's.

When it comes time to switch, the Z9's should be a very good option, and equally if not more appropriate compared to the competition.

You need to come on down and run it through its paces man.  I've got the "Aardenburg/Lindquist" 10445 patch target ICC profile (Mark's a frickin' genius) and the Z9+ rock and rolls.
You won't believe what the standard 464 patch target does.  Take any paper you want, Calibrate it, make the custom in-house profile and go. Easy-peasey and sooooo close, if not in many cases spot on.
Now there are exceptions to printing pastel colors which I'm working on trying to understand.  If you are serious about color faithful reproduction, you'll need to bring your "A" game to the table.
Softproofing creates a lot of opportunities, but ultimately, the reality is that this Vivid inkset is NOT the Vivera inkset, and it would be a mistake to send an image sofproofed for the Z3200 straight to the Z9+ and expect it to be dead on.  In some, if not many cases there will such similarity, only labeled prints will be the giveaway.  But in other situations, it can be like pulling teeth to color match a Z3200ps print to the Z9+ print.  It can get sooo close in many cases, but in others, so far, I have found, no cigar.

Cheers!

Mark
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2019, 01:55:02 pm »

+1
Many thanks for the valuable information regarding the printer.
The extra thick belt is a very welcome replacement; it was one of the bottlenecks, allthough new types lasted longer.
How is it possible that they have not found a good way to load sheets ?
I always put my sheets in straight at the rolls entrance;
I agree that with doing calibations ( like printhead allignment) you better use the paper as flat as possible.
My calibrations went all wrong when i used the last part of my roll.
Mark are there similar parts in the z9+ compared tot the Z3200? Or is it an all new machine?

Hai Pieter,

You no, the sheet loading thing?  Man, it's just the way it is, and it must simply be not cost effective for them to deal with it in a major way.
But IMO, it's the elephant in the room.  Oh well.

Yes, they do use standardized parts in the new Z9+.  If you're really curious about how it all works and just what's involved, check out:

Service Manual

Mark



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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2019, 01:57:18 pm »

Isn't there vacuum support?

Hey Pangiotas,

See for yourself.  Let me know what page you find it on:-)
This hopefully contains the answer to your question.

HERE

Mark
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samueljohnchia

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2019, 07:04:11 pm »

Hi Mark,

Thanks for providing such in-depth information about the Z9 + printer. Since no one else is really doing any meaningful investigation and sharing their reports in detail, you are an invaluable resource for all of us who are considering a new printer.

Do you happen to know which inks support dual drop and which don't? I remember that red and yellow don't but I can't recall precisely for the rest.

Also, have you seen any benefits from what HP calls "HP Pixel Control" which supposedly provides superior "smooth transitions, great detail and deep colors", over what the Z3200 can do? When printing synthetic gradients, are they somehow smoother than before? Does the same image file sent to both appear slightly more detailed with the newer Z9?
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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2019, 07:07:34 pm »

Isn't there vacuum support?

Nope, there isn't any. It's a pity because the paper path bends the media counter to the direction of the curl (Canon and Epson do not do this). One has to advance the paper a bit before you start printing to avoid head strikes, especially with stiff curly paper and pretty much always towards the end of the roll. I find it intolerable to waste expensive beautiful paper over bad design.
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2019, 09:15:22 pm »

Hi Mark,

Thanks for providing such in-depth information about the Z9 + printer. Since no one else is really doing any meaningful investigation and sharing their reports in detail, you are an invaluable resource for all of us who are considering a new printer.

Do you happen to know which inks support dual drop and which don't? I remember that red and yellow don't but I can't recall precisely for the rest.

Also, have you seen any benefits from what HP calls "HP Pixel Control" which supposedly provides superior "smooth transitions, great detail and deep colors", over what the Z3200 can do? When printing synthetic gradients, are they somehow smoother than before? Does the same image file sent to both appear slightly more detailed with the newer Z9?

Hi Samuel, Thanks for the kind words - I try but I certainly don't have all the answers by any means.

As far as benefits from the dual drop technology and pixel control, the fact that they are able to "mix" colors on the fly, of course, in their words obviates the need for light magenta, and light Gray.  So from the standpoint that a majority of prints are a close match, it seems they have accomplished something major, at least it's what I'm seeing.  Are transitions smoother, I think in some cases yes, are images capable of deeper colors and detail - can't actually say for sure yet since I haven't run through enough rolls and sheets to definitively get a handle on these issues. I'm seeing Z9+ equaling and/or bettering Z3200 output in some cases and less so in others. Add to this issue prints on glossy/semi-gloss/satin, etc., vs matte papers and this issue remains under study for me at the moment.

I'm not sure just how in-depth I want to study output (as in microscopic detail) as that's not really my area of expertise, and to the disappointment of some people I pretty much rely on my eye.  So far, it is a close race, if not possibly a (ahem) photo finish. Apologies for the pun.

I don't print synthetic gradients, however I have many gradients in abstract photos I did in the early 2000's that I plan to be printing soon.  This will be telling, since I know these images so well and have prints of the same images printed on Epson, Canon, and HP printers.

This is what I'm talking about:

Mark Lindquist Early 2000's Abstracts

I plan on printing a portfolio of these abstracts entirely on the Z9+ and I should be able to address the gradient issues then.

I'd like to address your remarks about head strikes:

Nope, there isn't any. It's a pity because the paper path bends the media counter to the direction of the curl (Canon and Epson do not do this). One has to advance the paper a bit before you start printing to avoid head strikes, especially with stiff curly paper and pretty much always towards the end of the roll. I find it intolerable to waste expensive beautiful paper over bad design.

So I have experienced head strikes at the very end of certain rolls with the Z9+.  On the other hand, where head strikes can be experienced at the very beginning of the roll, There have been none, particularly as the paper path introduces a reverse curl into the roll.  In fairness, I've had head strikes with the Z3200ps at the end of the roll, and I think it's not uncommon industry-wide.  Of course, the painful panacea for this is to roll out the remainder of the roll, decurl, then print.  I have yet to have ANY head strikes at the beginning of the roll, and to the contrary, have been amazed at how the reverse curl works so well beginning a new roll.

As far as sheets go, I have had NO head strikes at all.  However, I load paper strictly from behind via the metal platform, bypassing the sheet loading "slot" on the top of the machine.

There is pretty much a culture of working around quirks and issues with the Z3200 printers, and I see this is an area of continuity with the Z9+. 

Ciao-

Mark
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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2019, 09:30:41 pm »

If I can print this:


Slit-Screen, copyright 2004 © Mark Lindquist

and this:



Before Icarus Knew,  Copyright © 2005 Mark Lindquist

And several others without altering the original files, I'll be thrilled.  Many are rather delicate images, being single frame motion blur from hundreds of exposures with either the Nikon D2H or D2X.

I won't be surprised at needing to go back in and soft-proof for the paper/ink combinations, however.

-M
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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2019, 09:44:09 pm »

Here is an example of an image printed on both the Z3200ps and the Z9+ where the prints are indistinguishable from one another side by side:

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2019, 04:19:30 am »

Hi Samuel, Thanks for the kind words - I try but I certainly don't have all the answers by any means.

I'm certainly not expecting that :-) But thank you for your generosity regardless and it is fun when we all learn together!

Quote
As far as benefits from the dual drop technology and pixel control, the fact that they are able to "mix" colors on the fly, of course, in their words obviates the need for light magenta, and light Gray.  So from the standpoint that a majority of prints are a close match, it seems they have accomplished something major, at least it's what I'm seeing.  Are transitions smoother, I think in some cases yes, are images capable of deeper colors and detail - can't actually say for sure yet since I haven't run through enough rolls and sheets to definitively get a handle on these issues. I'm seeing Z9+ equaling and/or bettering Z3200 output in some cases and less so in others. Add to this issue prints on glossy/semi-gloss/satin, etc., vs matte papers and this issue remains under study for me at the moment.

The addition of Lm, Lc and Lk would only mean that colours are reproduced with a less obvious dot pattern/grain, and the absence of them does not change the overall colour reproduction (colours are not supposed to shift in lightness, hue or saturation). The dual drop tech is supposed to help out with that. I've seen some samples but I do not have a Z3200 to compare against. I'm assuming when you say they are a close match in this context, you are referring to the dot pattern, smoothness/graininess and highlight detail?

I never quite understood what HP means by being able to "mix" colours/inks at a pixel level. Is that not what Epsons and Canons do? I watched the marketing video and it makes me even more puzzled. The technology promises greater detail, deeper colour and smoother transitions - I'm sorry, I don't want deeper colours than my original, I want as faithful a reproduction as possible. If they mean deeper colours as in more total gamut is realised with the same inks, that would be quite remarkable indeed and it could only possibly affect colours that require mixing of inks, not pure hues. However, you have already mentioned broadly similar gamut and detail between the Z9+ and Z3200, so it seems that whatever HP Pixel Control is doing, isn't making much of a difference at all. I've also not ever had a problem printing smooth transitions on Canon or Epson printers, and I believe the Z3200 was excellent in this regard too.

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to the disappointment of some people I pretty much rely on my eye.

I find that to be very important to do. Some things just have to be evaluated visually. And if something is visible under high magnification but not to the naked eye, one may argue that the difference is inconsequential in the real world.

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I don't print synthetic gradients, however I have many gradients in abstract photos I did in the early 2000's that I plan to be printing soon.  This will be telling, since I know these images so well and have prints of the same images printed on Epson, Canon, and HP printers.

That's great! I look forward to your discoveries. I mentioned synthetic gradients only because you can make them noise-free and essentially perfect, so any inperfection in the print must be introduced by the printing process and is thus the maximal stress test for smoothness. If anything, it would help to show off how much better HP Pixel Control is helping.

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I'd like to address your remarks about head strikes:

So I have experienced head strikes at the very end of certain rolls with the Z9+.  On the other hand, where head strikes can be experienced at the very beginning of the roll, There have been none, particularly as the paper path introduces a reverse curl into the roll.

Happy that it's working out for you. During a HP Z9+ demonstration where I was present in person, a roll of HP Super Heavyweight Plus Matte paper was loaded and head strikes occurred at the very beginning of the roll. It was not towards the end of the roll. When I pointed it out, I was told that this is a known problem and the media needs to be advanced a bit to avoid this issue. The worst problems I've ever faced with these types of printers are paper handling related. Maybe I'm just more unlucky than most, but then again this demo printer wasn't mine :-)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 04:23:48 am by samueljohnchia »
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MHMG

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2019, 10:17:20 am »


...The addition of Lm, Lc and Lk would only mean that colours are reproduced with a less obvious dot pattern/grain, and the absence of them does not change the overall colour reproduction (colours are not supposed to shift in lightness, hue or saturation). The dual drop tech is supposed to help out with that. I've seen some samples but I do not have a Z3200 to compare against. I'm assuming when you say they are a close match in this context, you are referring to the dot pattern, smoothness/graininess and highlight detail?


Actually, the physics behind dilute Lm, Lc, and Lk and why manufacturers rolled out this technology with photo printers in the late 1990s was more than just about reducing dot pattern/grain appearance in light and midtone colors. The physics of a darker single color dot surrounded by more white space to achieve the lightness value required leads to reduced chroma compared to a few dots of more dilute colorant placed in overlapping fashion with better covering power (i.e. reduced white area on paper). So, the Lc and Lm also help extend color gamut in the light colors.  Lk helps with grain, and Ly isn't necessary because yellow is such a light and low contrast color to begin with.

Hp's decision to remove the Lm, Lc, and Lk, while trying not to give up any ground on color gamut or smoothness meant HP engineers had to play with a few engineering variables to pull it off. The dual droplet size is the obvious variable, but they could also have split the difference in pigment concentration as well. The M, and C and Gray inks used on the Z9 may well be more dilute and closer in density to the Z3200's Lm, Lc, and Lk than to the Z3200 L, C, and Gray ink. HP engineers could also be relying more on the new chromata red, green, and blue when printing into light pastel colors on the print surface. They can and did change the screening algorithm dramatically, hence the market speak about "pixel control" technology".

I have been working with Mark L to evaluate the Z9 versus the Z3200 using spectral/colorimetric data being supplied to me by Mark L. using the Z3200's spectrophotometer.  We are using the Z3200 to collect the data because, regrettably, the Z9's spectro whilst being much faster than that of the Z3200, has also been "gelded". The Z3200 spectro is fully addressable by the enduser whereas the Z9 spectro is black box (it prints and measures just one 464 patch target and that's it, albeit the resultant ICC profile the Z9 generates  is really quite good. No doubt HP marketing weighed in and told the engineers to "Keep it simple, stupid" for the enduser, but it's a shame to see such a beautiful spectro hobbled like that for marketing reasons.

The first thing I checked was whether the Z9 uses 100% Gray component replacement (GCR) when we sent it pure neutral RGB triplets. It does! Just like the Z3200. Neither Canon nor Epson do that in color mode, although Epson gets close when using ABW mode. This accounts why so many printmakers think the Z3200 had such great B&W printing capability. Hp has kept this goodness with the Z9. Second thing I checked was color gamut in the highlights. Mark L. and I need to run more tests, but my tentative conclusion, at least for matte fine art paper, is that the Z9's color gamut difference compared to the Z3200 is the opposite of what I would have anticipated. It does better, yes better even without the Lc and Lm in printing into the highlights, but sacrifices a little in the darker colors compared to the Z9. Go figure! All and all, the total color gamut volume of the Z9 and Z3200 are basically about the same with the differences in overall gamut occurring between lighter and darker print colors.  Transferring work seamlessly  from the Z3200 to the Z9 and vice versa will work much of the time for less discriminating print jobs, but not always. Some further image edits may be necessary to create the very best print quality using one printer or the other.

Anyway, my tentative conclusion after having made many colorimetric evaluations to date of the data sent to me by Mark L. is that HP has basically given us a reborn Z3200 with 2x to 3x the speed, less inks to buy, and universally replaceable print heads. That's pretty impressive, but then again, Hp has had 10 years to do it.  Longevity of the new "Photo Vivid" ink set compared to the older Vivera Pigment set (which still beats both Canon and Epson's latest formulations after all these years) remains to be tested at Aardenburg. I do plan on running some head-to-head comparison testing of HP's new inks versus the older Vivera Pigment set, but I have no budget for this work at this time. I don't know when this work will get started.

Cheers,
Mark McCormick-Goodhart
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 11:02:17 am by MHMG »
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deanwork

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Re: HP Z9+ Unboxing and Setup Video
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2019, 10:43:59 am »


Has anyone done a head to head comparison test of a subtle neutral black and white file comparing the Z9+ 464 patch target with a larger patch target from the Z3200 on the same media? I’m still curious about the way this dual dot tech works with subtle monochrome transitions.

John



Actually, the physics behind dilute Lm, Lc, and Lk and why manufacturers rolled out this technology with photo printers in the late 1990s was more than just about reducing dot pattern/grain appearance in light and midtown colors. The physics of a darker single color dot surrounded by more white space to achieve the lightness value required leads to reduced chroma compared to a few dots of more dilute colorant placed in overlapping fashion with better covering power (i.e. reduced white area on paper). So, the Lc and Lm also help extend color gamut in the light colors.  Lk helps with grain, and Ly isn't necessary because yellow is such a light and low contrast color to begin with.

Hp's decision to remove the Lm, Lc, and Lk, while trying not to give up any ground on color gamut or smoothness meant HP engineers had to play with a few engineering variables to pull it off. The dual droplet size is the obvious variable, but they could also have split the difference in pigment concentration as well. The M, and C and Gray inks used on the Z9 may well be more dilute and closer in density to the Z3200's Lm, Lc, and Lk than to the Z3200 L, C, and Gray ink. HP engineers could also be relying more on the new chromata red, green, and blue when printing into light pastel colors on the print surface. They can and did change the screening algorithm dramatically, hence the market speak about "pixel control" technology".

I have been working with Mark L to evaluate the Z9 versus the Z3200 using spectral/colorimetric data being supplied to me by Mark L. using the Z3200's spectrophotometer.  We are using the Z3200 to collect the data because, regrettably, the Z9's spectro whilst being much faster than that of the Z3200, has also been "gelded". The Z3200 spectro is fully addressable by the enduser whereas the Z9 spectro is black box (it prints and measures just one 464 patch target and that's it, albeit the resultant ICC profile the Z9 generates  is really quite good. No doubt HP marketing weighed in and told the engineers to "Keep it simple, stupid" for the enduser, but it's a shame to see such a beautiful spectro hobbled like that for marketing reasons.

The first thing I checked was whether the Z9 uses 100% Gray component replacement (GCR) when we sent it pure neutral RGB triplets. It does! Just like the Z3200. Neither Canon nor Epson do that in color mode, although Epson gets close when using ABW mode. This accounts why so many printmakers think the Z3200 had such great B&W printing capability. Hp has kept this goodness with the Z9. Second thing I checked was color gamut in the highlights. Mark L. and I need to run more tests, but my tentative conclusion, at least for matte fine art paper, is that the Z9's color gamut difference compared to the Z3200 is the opposite of what I would have anticipated. It does better, yes better even without the Lc and Lm in printing into the highlights, but sacrifices a little in the darker colors compared to the Z9. Go figure! All and all, the total color gamut volume of the Z9 and Z3200 are basically about the same with the differences in overall gamut occurring between lighter and darker print colors.  Transferring work seamlessly  from the Z3200 to the Z9 and vice versa will work much of the time for less discriminating print jobs, but not always. Some further image edits may be necessary to create the very best print quality using one printer or the other.

Anyway, my tentative conclusion after having made many colorimetric evaluations to date of the data sent to me by Mark L. is that HP has basically given us a reborn Z3200 with 2x to 3x the speed, less inks to buy, and universally replaceable print heads. That's pretty impressive, but then again, Hp has had 10 years to do it.  Longevity of the new "Photo Vivid" ink set compared to the older Vivera Pigment set (which still beats both Canon and Epson's latest formulations after all these years) remains to be tested at Aardenburg. I do plan on running some head-to-head comparison testing of HP's new inks versus the older Vivera Pigment set, but I have no budget for this work at this time. I don't know when this work will get started.

Cheers,
Mark McCormick-Goodhart
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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