The American Constitution

[Robert Roaldi]

"Go back from where you came from" isn't a racist attack but a political attack on people who others feel are not patriotic enough. 

Are you folks actually trying to put forward the argument that when someone says "Go back to where you came from" to people with dark skin, that it isn't racist?  Is this some kind of joke?

And since when does patriotism mean you can't criticize your own country's policies?

This is not a serious conversation. This is what I'd expect in a school yard or a bar.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

From your article, "the Obama administration reached a cybersecurity agreement with the Chinese government in 2015 that included a bilateral promise to stop the theft of intellectual property from one another.  This diplomatic solution marked a promising step forward, although President Obama warned that the agreement’s words must be “followed by actions.”  Initially, China appeared to live up to its promise, as in the months after the agreement, Chinese commercial hacks of American companies dropped by roughly 90%.

And that even didn't require a Trade war that's currently already costing average Americans $600 or more a year. Ask the Farming community how much it has cost them, sofar. And things are only starting, because the Chines won't blink that soon. Their economy was starting to overheat with annual growth numbers in excess of 6.5%. A slowdown was welcome, and will improve their competitive position (devaluation of their currency, and buying products (like Soybeans from Brasil) in other parts of the world where they'd like to do more business anyway). By trading with Brasil, Brasil earns money with which they can buy Chinese manufactured products. Thank you USA for ending trade deals with those regions, China loves you for shooting yourself in the foot, and providing China the opportunity to pick up the pieces.

Since 2016, however, Chinese trade secret theft has once again increased at an alarming pace." 

So Obama's great success here was to get the Chinese to stop hacking for about a year, only for them to start it up again, gang buster style, before he even left office.  Not a very great record, and clearly shows that China could care less what we do in our courts that have no jurisdiction in Asia.  They merely gave it a rest just long enough for it to blow over and Obama to become a lame duck president.

They probably tried maximizing their gains during a transition of presidencies (with Trump as the Republican nominee), and at the same time increase value of the bargaining chip, they could use again with a new administration.

Cheers,
Bart

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Are you folks actually trying to put forward the argument that when someone says "Go back to where you came from" to people with dark skin, that it isn't racist?  Is this some kind of joke?

And since when does patriotism mean you can't criticize your own country's policies?

This is not a serious conversation. This is what I'd expect in a school yard or a bar.

+1

Fully agree.

And for Alan K.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_back_where_you_came_from

[Alan Klein]

Are you folks actually trying to put forward the argument that when someone says "Go back to where you came from" to people with dark skin, that it isn't racist?  Is this some kind of joke?

And since when does patriotism mean you can't criticize your own country's policies?

This is not a serious conversation. This is what I'd expect in a school yard or a bar.

Where I grew up in the Bronx in NYC, most kids were 1st and 2nd generation Jewish, Italian or Irish white kids.  When someone acted ignorant or like a foreigner rather than acting like a "patriotic" American, that was one of the "put downs" used - "go back where you came from".    It had nothing to do with race.  We were using it against each other.  We were all white. It was also used against the many foreigners who lived in NYC when they acted like non-Americans.  Sure it was a nationalistic or patriotic slur.  But again, it didn't have racial but rather national characteristics.  Now I don't know what Trump had in mind; I can't get into his mind.  But he's from NYC too.

Now that doesn't mean it isn;t used by some people as a racial slur.  I never used it that way.  And many other New Yorkers don't either.

[jeremyrh]

Sure it was a nationalistic or patriotic slur.  But again, it didn't have racial but rather national characteristics. 

Eh?

[Alan Klein]

Eh?

Apparently you had different experiences.  Where was that and what was that?

[Robert Roaldi]

Where I grew up in the Bronx in NYC, most kids were 1st and 2nd generation Jewish, Italian or Irish white kids.  When someone acted ignorant or like a foreigner rather than acting like a "patriotic" American, that was one of the "put downs" used - "go back where you came from".    It had nothing to do with race.  We were using it against each other.  We were all white. It was also used against the many foreigners who lived in NYC when they acted like non-Americans.  Sure it was a nationalistic or patriotic slur.  But again, it didn't have racial but rather national characteristics.  Now I don't know what Trump had in mind; I can't get into his mind.  But he's from NYC too.

Now that doesn't mean it isn;t used by some people as a racial slur.  I never used it that way.  And many other New Yorkers don't either.

Alan, I get it. When I was eight, I did the same.

You're going to have to make up your mind. Either Trump is a master manipulator genius or he's a babe in the woods who is dominated by the media who is out to get him. You can't have it both ways.

He either opened up his mouth and said something stupid when he shouldn't have and didn't "mean" it as a racist slur, or he knows what to say to raise the support of a racist sub-segment of his base. Either way, it's not a good way for a President to behave. It's not as if he doesn't know by now that his choice of words matters. It may be ok in this forum's context for Slobodan to say things that will incite "lefties" to apoplexy, but it's not ok for a President to do so, especially when you have on a couple of occasions yourself complained that he was not being treated with enough respect by forum contributors.

Saying "Oops, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that" can work once or twice, maybe, but after this much time and after this many occurrences, it's not an acceptable response from him. And I haven't heard his say yet anyway.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Excerpting some key points from James Fallows's good column in The Atlantic (do check it out for links to his previous writings on Trump, particularly those written during the campaign).

But just from life I know this:

 -  If an airline learned that a pilot was talking publicly about being “the Chosen One” or “the King of Israel” (or Scotland or whatever), the airline would be looking carefully into whether this person should be in the cockpit.

 -   If a hospital had a senior surgeon behaving as Trump now does, other doctors and nurses would be talking with administrators and lawyers before giving that surgeon the scalpel again.

  -  If a public company knew that a CEO was making costly strategic decisions on personal impulse or from personal vanity or slight, and was doing so more and more frequently, the board would be starting to act. (See: Uber, management history of.)

  -  If a university, museum, or other public institution had a leader who routinely insulted large parts of its constituency—racial or religious minorities, immigrants or international allies, women—the board would be starting to act.

  -  If the U.S. Navy knew that one of its commanders was routinely lying about important operational details, plus lashing out under criticism, plus talking in “Chosen One” terms, the Navy would not want that person in charge of, say, a nuclear-missile submarine. (See: The Queeg saga in The Caine Mutiny, which would make ideal late-summer reading or viewing for members of the White House staff.)

Yet now such a  person is in charge not of one nuclear-missile submarine but all of them—and the bombers and ICBMs, and diplomatic military agreements, and the countless other ramifications of executive power.

If Donald Trump were in virtually any other position of responsibility, action would already be under way to remove him from that role. The board at a public company would have replaced him outright or arranged a discreet shift out of power.

[jeremyrh]

Apparently you had different experiences.  Where was that and what was that?

Umm...  It's not that - it's that I'm puzzled how you can imagine that telling a Jew to "go back where they came from" is not racism.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I get it. When I was eight, I did the same.

You're going to have to make up your mind. Either Trump is a master manipulator genius or he's a babe in the woods who is dominated by the media who is out to get him. You can't have it both ways.

He either opened up his mouth and said something stupid when he shouldn't have and didn't "mean" it as a racist slur, or he knows what to say to raise the support of a racist sub-segment of his base. Either way, it's not a good way for a President to behave. It's not as if he doesn't know by now that his choice of words matters. It may be ok in this forum's context for Slobodan to say things that will incite "lefties" to apoplexy, but it's not ok for a President to do so, especially when you have on a couple of occasions yourself complained that he was not being treated with enough respect by forum contributors.

Saying "Oops, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that" can work once or twice, maybe, but after this much time and after this many occurrences, it's not an acceptable response from him. And I haven't heard his say yet anyway.

You make a salient point.  But I can say the same thing about politicians who get into the gutter and pull the race card to smear the opposition in order to divide the populace and get votes when race is not the issue.  You can't say that a policy is wrong if it comes from the lips of a person of color.  That's just silly.  It seems that too much of society is resorting to this kind of tactic.  I think it should not happen.  After Obama;s two terms, we should be past that stuff on both sides.  I think Trump's response is often in opposition to what he gets from the other side.  Maybe everyone should grow up.  It's time to move on. 

Yesterday I was in a big shopping mall near my house in central New Jersey.  I stuffed myself on two Nathans hot dogs and their fries.  Yum.  Then when I was walking around, there were four teenage boys being escorted out of the building by security guards.  The four, three white kids and one black, were doing a choreographed hip hop routine while a fifth guy was shooting them with a video camera, well DSLR. They were  obviously all practiced and coordinated singing and rapping and jiving have a grand old time, laughing and everything. But they weren't pro dancers or singers, just kids having fun.  These kids were tight; you could see they were all friends who hung out together.  Race was not an issue with them.  I think that's great.  That's where the country has moved.  If politicians would also move on, we'd all be a lot better off. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Umm...  It's not that - it's that I'm puzzled how you can imagine that telling a Jew to "go back where they came from" is not racism.

Or an American citizen / congressperson of color ...

[Alan Klein]

Umm...  It's not that - it's that I'm puzzled how you can imagine that telling a Jew to "go back where they came from" is not racism.

When I grew up, nationality slurs were different then racism which were different than religious slurs.   It's only recently that people lump these  together.  Slurs against Jews or Catholics for example were religious slurs.  Slurs against Italians or Jews or Irish would be nationality slurs.  Slurs against people of color were racial slurs.  Today, all three areas are called racial slurs.  It's all the same because politicians find it convenient to lump them together to divide people.  Like I said, none of it is right.  We should get past these things. 

[Rob C]

Are you folks actually trying to put forward the argument that when someone says "Go back to where you came from" to people with dark skin, that it isn't racist?  Is this some kind of joke?

And since when does patriotism mean you can't criticize your own country's policies?

This is not a serious conversation. This is what I'd expect in a school yard or a bar.

That is exactly the message that's being promoted here.

Forget argument or discussion: it often leads to non sequiturs and/or total, shameless volte-faces.

As mentioned often: Alice in.

Rob

[jeremyrh]

When I grew up, nationality slurs were different then racism which were different than religious slurs.   It's only recently that people lump these  together.  Slurs against Jews or Catholics for example were religious slurs.  Slurs against Italians or Jews or Irish would be nationality slurs.  Slurs against people of color were racial slurs.  Today, all three areas are called racial slurs.  It's all the same because politicians find it convenient to lump them together to divide people.  Like I said, none of it is right.  We should get past these things.

So - Jews are a religion and not a race, right? Is that what you're saying?

What, in your head, is a race, and what makes a difference between abusing someone on account of their race and on account of the national origin of their parents or grandparents or on account of their religion. And I suppose we can add their sexual identity? Do you have in your head some kind of list of what abuse is OK and what is not? Are you so lacking in self awareness that you can't see that this is, at best, absurd?

[Alan Klein]

So - Jews are a religion and not a race, right? Is that what you're saying?

Depends.  Some feel they're an ethnic group, others a nationality, others a religious group.  Some may feel it's racial, but race is also based on color and there are black Jews as well as white Jews.  I feel that it's people of the Jewish faith whose lineage goes back to the Israelites in Israel. But then again, converts like Ivanka Trump are Jews as well.  It's all very confusing.  Maybe this Wiki article could help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Who_is_a_Jew?

[JoeKitchen]

And that even didn't require a Trade war that's currently already costing average Americans $600 or more a year. Ask the Farming community how much it has cost them, sofar. And things are only starting, because the Chines won't blink that soon. Their economy was starting to overheat with annual growth numbers in excess of 6.5%. A slowdown was welcome, and will improve their competitive position (devaluation of their currency, and buying products (like Soybeans from Brasil) in other parts of the world where they'd like to do more business anyway). By trading with Brasil, Brasil earns money with which they can buy Chinese manufactured products. Thank you USA for ending trade deals with those regions, China loves you for shooting yourself in the foot, and providing China the opportunity to pick up the pieces.

They probably tried maximizing their gains during a transition of presidencies (with Trump as the Republican nominee), and at the same time increase value of the bargaining chip, they could use again with a new administration.

Cheers,
Bart

That is not an excuse to suddenly start employing your nefarious actions again, at a much higher speed, which you agreed to stop.  This also clearly shows that you can not take China at their word and greater actions are needed in response this time around. 

The point here is that China had their chance to stop hacking foreign companies with minimal punishment.  They ultimately choose to ignore it.  Since these minimal punishments did not get them to act properly, higher levels of actions are now called for. 

You dont keep on giving repeat offenders slaps on the wrist; eventually you have to fine them or send them to jail if need be. 

[James Clark]

When I grew up, nationality slurs were different then racism which were different than religious slurs.   It's only recently that people lump these  together.  Slurs against Jews or Catholics for example were religious slurs.  Slurs against Italians or Jews or Irish would be nationality slurs.  Slurs against people of color were racial slurs.  Today, all three areas are called racial slurs.  It's all the same because politicians find it convenient to lump them together to divide people.  Like I said, none of it is right.  We should get past these things.

Alan, I do get what you're saying here.  I grew up (DC area) in a very integrated area, and my best friends were a mix of average white WASPy kids (me), three Vietnamese guys, a Filipino, a reform Jew and a another guy who was reform-ish conservative, and who over time went full Orthodox (I just went to his wedding in Brooklyn a few years ago - it was fascinating.  We threw him around on a chair...)

All of us teased each other with stupid stuff like how the Jewish guys always wanted to go to a cheap place for dinner, the Asian guys wanted to get Pho, etc. etc.  Stupid stuff, but the kind of things close friends can tease each other about, acknowledging stereotypes with a wink and an inherent acknowledgement that these things exist, but that they don't ACTUALLY define us.  Today, my wife and I will tease each other about who's whiter (It's her - I promise), and our son, who's black, loves to jump in and give us a hard time about it as well (which actually sometimes leads to some great conversations and has provided me with a lot of personal growth) 

But that's not appropriate for me to say to the general public, because they don't know my background or that these things come from a place of familiarity, and maybe that's a problem - maybe everyone shouldn't be so sensitive.  But regardless, were I to use that kind of language with my opponents of color on a national stage, can't you see how this these things - the stereotypes, the assumed default position of my whiteness as the standard to which everything else is measured, and the standard of what constitutes "real" Americas - plays on racial assumptions and tensions, even if I'm not going full on Klan and outright saying that brown people are inferior? 

[Alan Klein]

That is not an excuse to suddenly start employing your nefarious actions again, at a much higher speed, which you agreed to stop.  This also clearly shows that you can not take China at their word and greater actions are needed in response this time around. 

The point here is that China had their chance to stop hacking foreign companies with minimal punishment.  They ultimately choose to ignore it.  Since these minimal punishments did not get them to act properly, higher levels of actions are now called for. 

You dont keep on giving repeat offenders slaps on the wrist; eventually you have to fine them or send them to jail if need be. 

It's pretty amazing to think that a modern society trying to get ahead is based on stealing other people's intellectual property; forcing companies to turn over their design drawings and formulas.  Apparently, they can't compete legitimately without hacking copyrighted and patented material other people have spent their lives creating.  It's like someone breaking into your house at night while you're sleeping and stealing your watch.  Don't they have any scruples? 

Maybe they're still pissed off that the Italians stole their design for spaghetti and trying to get even. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... a Trade war that's currently already costing average Americans $600 or more a year....

It is costing Americans precisely zero. What is paid in tariffs ends up in the budget, a zero-sum result.

[JoeKitchen]

Are you folks actually trying to put forward the argument that when someone says "Go back to where you came from" to people with dark skin, that it isn't racist?  Is this some kind of joke?

And since when does patriotism mean you can't criticize your own country's policies?

This is not a serious conversation. This is what I'd expect in a school yard or a bar.

I have to agree with Alan here.  I do not consider it to be a racial slur.  At worse it is more of statement that deals more with nationality, although I will contest, it does not make much sense since they are both Americans.  I am also not condoning it.  At best though, it was just an inner city colloquialism he used to illustrate more of a disliking of them that had nothing to do with their race. 

I too grow up in an inner city and used this figure of speech often.  We did not use it in anti-nationality way or when questioning patriotism; that is way too abstract for kids to understand.  It was more of when we dealt with kids from other neighborhoods who got on our nerves. 

"Oh, you play suicide ball with a tennis ball, not a baseball?  Then why don't you go back where you came from then if you don't like how we play."  By the way, playing Sui with a baseball is probably not the best idea.