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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 80449 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #320 on: June 09, 2019, 02:25:59 am »

You are hardly the person to dish out advice to anyone...
It doesn't stop you of course - stick to photography: at least you do know something about that...
It is really easy to ignore mindless rambling from those who have pictures of themselves with their profile.  I am certain that they are grateful that I have one but they don't ignore me but rather digess into inane commentary. 
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #321 on: June 09, 2019, 03:02:14 am »

In the interests of gender equality, I suggest that women should have equal rights to be insulted as men. If her husband can be freely referred to as "orange buffoon," surely we can call his wife anything we want. She should not have a free pass just because she is a woman. That would be sexist, no?

First, he is your president, who chose to enter public life, and she is not; and secondly, those who use playground abuse such as "orange buffoon" illustrate more about their own infantility than about him.

Jeremy
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #322 on: June 09, 2019, 03:04:43 am »

I'm sure some will find other ways to make a living, but many? Well, that's pure speculation, and it ignores any reason for choosing a career in medicine other than the salary.

There's a variety of reasons doctors might choose to earn a living from something other than medicine. Money is but one of them. It played no part in my decision.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #323 on: June 09, 2019, 03:55:36 am »

With due respect to Slobodan he is no expert here, certainly not to comment about requirements for foreign medical graduates to practise in Australia!

As someone who is a medical doctor (originally qualified in South Africa) and therefore needed to go through the process of getting full registration in Australia - exactly the process your Spanish doctor was talking about - I have some real knowledge and insight here!

There is no unpaid work in Australia - simply does not happen!

Sometimes medical graduates come from countries (but really it is the specific medical school that counts) where their qualifications have no recognition in Australia at all. In this situation prospective doctors MUST pass the equivalent of a medical school exit examination in Australia before they practise at all - even under supervision...

I doubt this applies to your Spanish doctor since I am not aware of any Spanish medical school that does not enjoy provisional recognition in Australia...

So, I suggest desisting from commenting and speculating about issues with which you are all wholly unfamiliar - and, dare I say it, ignorant!

So, are you stating that there is no measurable probationary period where a newcomer, fully qualified as doctor in his/her own European - in this case Spanish - environment, will be working within a hospital or private practice, without collecting payment in return for time there? I would assume it's fair to think that that period involves working under supervision, but that constitutes performing skilled, trained work, does it not?

If you can come up with some official reference to that effect, covering the situation of a fully qualified (in their own country) doctor arriving in Australia with the wish to find a job in their present line of work, that allows them to be paid whilst they are working their way into the Australian system (which I'd think could only be done by spending actual work time on the job in Australia as against sitting at home n Australia reading up on it), please don't be shy about posting it: I will be happy to make a hard copy and give it to my new doctor. If she doesn't take it up, at least it may gain me a brownie point or two! You wouldn't grudge me that, would you?

jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #324 on: June 09, 2019, 04:01:25 am »


So, I suggest desisting from commenting and speculating about issues with which you are all wholly unfamiliar - and, dare I say it, ignorant!

That would be pretty much the end of the coffee corner!!
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #325 on: June 09, 2019, 04:09:43 am »

Melania? The hairdo with legs?

Hey, she was the best thing to look at during the inauguration ceremony that attracted the largest street crowds ever, ever ever!

As with the previous French head honcho with Carla Bruni (acually of Italian stock!), Trump's best bit is his other half. Exactly as was mine, now that I think of it.

Her hair is actually not bad at all, for a model - and the abuse that subjected it to - it's just that with all those goddam Boeings and choppers she has to use, she also has to use too much hair spray to keep it in place and avoid being caught up in those whirling scythes; like Carla, she instinctively manages to look elegant, something which defeats many.

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #326 on: June 09, 2019, 04:12:31 am »

That would be pretty much the end of the coffee corner!!

And of Spanish lady doctors who know nothing.

;-)

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #327 on: June 09, 2019, 04:19:31 am »

It is really easy to ignore mindless rambling from those who have pictures of themselves with their profile.  I am certain that they are grateful that I have one but they don't ignore me but rather digess into inane commentary.

I'm not pretty enough - or vain enough? - to post an avatar or portrait that's seen every time my words crop up; who needs it? Who needs the words, any of it, from almost anybody here?

Although some of us strike up relationships we cherish, mostly, I'd guess, we are here because we can't think of anything better to do at the times that we are here. Why else, now that we are all experts in everything?

;-)

Tony Jay

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #328 on: June 09, 2019, 05:46:16 am »

So, are you stating that there is no measurable probationary period where a newcomer, fully qualified as doctor in his/her own European - in this case Spanish - environment, will be working within a hospital or private practice, without collecting payment in return for time there? I would assume it's fair to think that that period involves working under supervision, but that constitutes performing skilled, trained work, does it not?

If you can come up with some official reference to that effect, covering the situation of a fully qualified (in their own country) doctor arriving in Australia with the wish to find a job in their present line of work, that allows them to be paid whilst they are working their way into the Australian system (which I'd think could only be done by spending actual work time on the job in Australia as against sitting at home n Australia reading up on it), please don't be shy about posting it: I will be happy to make a hard copy and give it to my new doctor. If she doesn't take it up, at least it may gain me a brownie point or two! You wouldn't grudge me that, would you?
There is no mystery here - one just goes to the AMC (Australian Medical Council) website...

Just remember that there are two issues in play here...
Firstly one needs to registered to practise - without some form of registration one will not be allowed to work. It is true that proficiency in English needs to be demonstrated in order to be registered, but this evidence ideally should be gathered before leaving one's home country - not after. Basically, for a Spanish national passing an International English Language Testing System "IELTS" (in Spain) would be required.
This registration would likely only be a provisional registration which means that practise under supervision is required.
Whether provisional registration is extended also depends on the medical school from which one has graduated. In the case of Spain I do not believe that any Spanish medical school is excluded by the AMC.

If individuals are trained as specialists in their home country they will be registered provisionally as senior trainees in the appropriate speciality.

Having registration is not a guarantee of a job...one will still need to apply and compete for training jobs.

If one is successful in applying for a job then one will earn EXACTLY the same as any other trainee of the same level of seniority. Individuals are also taxed at the same rate as Australian citizens. (I am not aware of ANY jurisdiction in the Western world where one would or could be forced to work without remuneration in this context.)

How long one needs to practise (and perhaps train) under supervision does depend to some degree on where (which country) one has trained and how experienced one is. Sometimes only six months is required, but sometimes several years may be required as well as fulfilling all the requirements of the local colleges (of Surgeons, Physicians etc) which may also include exams and clinicals.

After one has successfully completed whatever requirements the AMC and relevant college is demanding then one will be awarded a fellowship in the relevant speciality allowing one to practise independently in Australia, which may also include private practise.

None of this applies if one qualifications are NOT recognised by the AMC. In this case no registration will be extended and one will not be allowed to work (as a doctor). I personally know of doctors who ended up in Australia as refugees (and occasionally for other reasons) who hail from countries where the AMC will not recognise their qualifications. In these cases the AMC accepts and understands that they are doctors and will allow them to try and pass the AMC certificate (this is a combination of written and clinical exams that represent the exit standard of Australian medical schools) along with the IELTS. My experience with these individuals is that the AMC certificate is much more a test of one's ability and facility with the English language as opposed to one's medical knowledge - in other words the best predictor of success in the 'medical' exam is actually an excellent standard of English! My personal experience of these kinds of exams in Australia was that they were relatively trivial as far as medical knowledge went.

Passing the AMC certificate in individuals who could not get an initial provisional registration allows them to apply for an internship in Australia. An internship is also a paid position although it also the most junior position that a doctor can occupy.

Bottom line: If one has either provisional or full registration in Australia then one can   practise medicine and potentially be employed. If one is employed then one WILL be paid. In fact, the only way one could get an unpaid position (say with MSF or Mercy Ships) is with full registration. These organisations will not accept those doctors with only provisional registration since they can only be employed to supervised (and paid) positions within Australian hospitals.
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #329 on: June 09, 2019, 06:17:47 am »

There is no mystery here - one just goes to the AMC (Australian Medical Council) website...

Just remember that there are two issues in play here...
Firstly one needs to registered to practise - without some form of registration one will not be allowed to work. It is true that proficiency in English needs to be demonstrated in order to be registered, but this evidence ideally should be gathered before leaving one's home country - not after. Basically, for a Spanish national passing an International English Language Testing System "IELTS" (in Spain) would be required.
This registration would likely only be a provisional registration which means that practise under supervision is required.
Whether provisional registration is extended also depends on the medical school from which one has graduated. In the case of Spain I do not believe that any Spanish medical school is excluded by the AMC.

If individuals are trained as specialists in their home country they will be registered provisionally as senior trainees in the appropriate speciality.

Having registration is not a guarantee of a job...one will still need to apply and compete for training jobs.

If one is successful in applying for a job then one will earn EXACTLY the same as any other trainee of the same level of seniority. Individuals are also taxed at the same rate as Australian citizens. (I am not aware of ANY jurisdiction in the Western world where one would or could be forced to work without remuneration in this context.)

How long one needs to practise (and perhaps train) under supervision does depend to some degree on where (which country) one has trained and how experienced one is. Sometimes only six months is required, but sometimes several years may be required as well as fulfilling all the requirements of the local colleges (of Surgeons, Physicians etc) which may also include exams and clinicals.

After one has successfully completed whatever requirements the AMC and relevant college is demanding then one will be awarded a fellowship in the relevant speciality allowing one to practise independently in Australia, which may also include private practise.

None of this applies if one qualifications are NOT recognised by the AMC. In this case no registration will be extended and one will not be allowed to work (as a doctor). I personally know of doctors who ended up in Australia as refugees (and occasionally for other reasons) who hail from countries where the AMC will not recognise their qualifications. In these cases the AMC accepts and understands that they are doctors and will allow them to try and pass the AMC certificate (this is a combination of written and clinical exams that represent the exit standard of Australian medical schools) along with the IELTS. My experience with these individuals is that the AMC certificate is much more a test of one's ability and facility with the English language as opposed to one's medical knowledge - in other words the best predictor of success in the 'medical' exam is actually an excellent standard of English! My personal experience of these kinds of exams in Australia was that they were relatively trivial as far as medical knowledge went.

Passing the AMC certificate in individuals who could not get an initial provisional registration allows them to apply for an internship in Australia. An internship is also a paid position although it also the most junior position that a doctor can occupy.

Bottom line: If one has either provisional or full registration in Australia then one can   practise medicine and potentially be employed. If one is employed then one WILL be paid. In fact, the only way one could get an unpaid position (say with MSF or Mercy Ships) is with full registration. These organisations will not accept those doctors with only provisional registration since they can only be employed to supervised (and paid) positions within Australian hospitals.

Thank you very much!

That makes everything pretty clear to me, and I will make a paper copy and pass it along.

Rob


P.S.

Copied; tomorow morning I'll try to get it to the lady in question without having to go through the rigmarole of an appointment! It can be done.

Thanks again
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 06:34:39 am by Rob C »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #330 on: June 09, 2019, 07:14:54 am »

I'm not pretty enough - or vain enough? - to post an avatar or portrait that's seen every time my words crop up; who needs it? Who needs the words, any of it, from almost anybody here?

Although some of us strike up relationships we cherish, mostly, I'd guess, we are here because we can't think of anything better to do at the times that we are here. Why else, now that we are all experts in everything?

;-)
I think personal pictures makes it easier to find specific posts of others and myself when I'm going through a thread.  It also adds a personal touch to our relations.  Despite our often antagonistic posts to each other, I think I speak more often to others here than my wife. :)  So a picture helps defray some animosity and hopeful makes us more friendly to each other - which we should be.  Don;t you agree with that part? 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #331 on: June 09, 2019, 07:21:25 am »

There's a variety of reasons doctors might choose to earn a living from something other than medicine. Money is but one of them. It played no part in my decision.

Jeremy
I'm pleased you took up medicine.  And my post was in no way trying to besmirch any doctor.  I was just trying to explain that economics will effect which careers people go into.  Of course not everyone.  There's is a very long training period for doctors as you well know.  That requires a lot of dedication.   Some may feel that if the government is going to limit a person's success at the end, they may choose another career.   If that happens, and maybe I'm wrong that it will, then the public will lose some really good potential medical experts in the future. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #332 on: June 09, 2019, 07:27:03 am »

He can barely speak English and has an extremely limited vocabulary. Something on the order of fifth grade. Probably the reason he appeals to his base - order white men without a college education.

Looking down on people and your feeling of superiority is one of the reasons Hillary lost the election.  Keep it up. 

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #333 on: June 09, 2019, 07:42:21 am »

Just a thought brought about by looking at my own link to Eve Arnold: do the Guardian Angels still exist on the NY subway system - are they relevant today?

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #334 on: June 09, 2019, 08:13:45 am »

Just a thought brought about by looking at my own link to Eve Arnold: do the Guardian Angels still exist on the NY subway system - are they relevant today?

Rob

They're active in 130 cities and 13 countries around the world including the UK.  Curtis Sliwa, the founder, is a NYC icon.  I met him once on the street.  He has his own radio program and is tough as nails. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels
http://guardianangels.org/
The Mafia tried to kill him.  He escape out of the cab they shot him in climbing out the window with three bullets in him.  Incredibly he survived.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/nyregion/testifying-against-gotti-sliwa-describes-how-he-was-shot-in-a-taxi.html

jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #335 on: June 09, 2019, 08:36:54 am »


Although some of us strike up relationships we cherish, mostly, I'd guess, we are here because we can't think of anything better to do at the times that we are here. Why else, now that we are all experts in everything?

;-)

Scary thought - maybe despite differences of opinion, we are actually quite like each other, at least in how we choose to spend our leisure time :-(
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #336 on: June 09, 2019, 08:55:52 am »

Scary thought - maybe despite differences of opinion, we are actually quite like each other, at least in how we choose to spend our leisure time :-(


It's like I suggested elsewhere on LuLa: there are few absolutes in life...

What's with the :-( ? We should celebrate our differences instead! (I write celebrate, but it's become a dumb word these days, applied to all manner of things that defy any real ability to be celebrated; just another slip on the downwards slide of language. Nonetheless, applicable or not, we have come to understand what people mean...)

:)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #337 on: June 09, 2019, 11:32:55 am »

First, he is your president, who chose to enter public life, and she is not; and secondly, those who use playground abuse such as "orange buffoon" illustrate more about their own infantility than about him.

1. Not exactly true. FLOTUS is a public figure (emphasis mine):

Quote
Although the First Lady's role has never been codified or officially defined, she figures prominently in the political and social life of the nation.[1] Since the early 20th century, the First Lady has been assisted by official staff, now known as the Office of the First Lady and headquartered in the East Wing of the White House.

... Since the 1790s, the role of First Lady has changed considerably. It has come to include involvement in political campaigns, management of the White House, championship of social causes, and representation of the president at official and ceremonial occasions.

2. Agree. By the same token, the post about Melania speaks more about the poster than about her.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #338 on: June 09, 2019, 12:05:05 pm »

With due respect to Slobodan he is no expert here, certainly not to comment about requirements for foreign medical graduates to practise in Australia!...

Nor I claimed to be. I simply tried to offer a possible explanation for what Rob heard his doctor saying.

I said:

Quote
Not really working for free, but spending two years on recertification, while not working, i.e., not receiving a salary.

Which you then confirmed:

Quote
Sometimes medical graduates come from countries (but really it is the specific medical school that counts) where their qualifications have no recognition in Australia at all. In this situation prospective doctors MUST pass the equivalent of a medical school exit examination in Australia before they practise at all - even under supervision...

So, where is the disagreement?

The subject that Rob initiated was international mobility of medical staff. He merely mentioned Australia, with no intention to disparage it, let alone claim that it still practices slavery. I thought that was obvious even to the most casual observer.

This being an international forum, I think it might be of interest where my observations (cited above) come from. I have a friend who underwent a medical certification program in America. Had a chat with her this morning. She said that the process might take 2-3 years. She also said that the medical part is hardly trivial.

Here is a transcript from our chat, so see for yourself (pardon her typos, she was at work, and generally not caring about typos):

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #339 on: June 09, 2019, 12:16:44 pm »

1. Not exactly true. FLOTUS is a public figure (emphasis mine):

2. Agree. By the same token, the post about Melania speaks more about the poster than about her.

1. She's not an elected official, though; 2. certainly true; and my warning stands. Political discussions have proved remarkably tame and generally well-behaved since I re-enabled them, which is pleasing. They will stay that way.

Jeremy
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