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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 83133 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2019, 07:19:07 am »

As Churchill observed in this context, man (or Man) embraces woman.

Jeremy
While a useful quote it is not accurate in a historical context which was the problem with Alan Klein's post.  Much religious law is still patriarchal and we have nation state examples where outrageous things continue to happen.  National sufferage in the US required a Constitutional amendment.  I'm unsure of how things progressed in Britain which is governed by common law.  In the US the temperance movement that led to prohibition started as a women's movement responding to spousal abuse by drunken husbands (quite frequent in the 1800s).  The point of my earlier post is that the original Constitution and Bill of Rights was 'white male' centric.  It took some years before the 14th amendment established equal protection and some more years for the 15th amendment to establish universal voting rights.  Even though there were constitutional protections, the examples of Jim Crow laws in the former Confederate states showed that this was not always enough.  Plessy v Ferguson, as decided by the Supreme Court, stated that 'separate but equal' was a sufficient solution.

I'll spare you the discussion of treatment of the indigenous Indians who are now largely confined to reservations.

While Churchill was an admirable man and leader, this particular quote is wide of the mark.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2019, 07:33:09 am »

Taking into account those in the US who don't pay tax may shift the data.
But according to the IRS 2016 spreadsheet referenced and linked by the Bloomberg article, of those who pay tax, the "rich" pay the highest tax per head, but their total contribution is 8% of the total, while those who earn $100,000 to $500,000 contribute 43.9% of the total. Have a look at the source figures. Happy to be corrected.
The problem with the Bloomberg article is that it only covers those who pay Federal income tax and does not include state and local taxes as well as those withheld for Social Security and Medicare.  These latter two taxes as well as sales taxes are regressive in that the same rate applies to all.  Social Security tax withholding has an annual earnings cap that once you reach that point you owe no tax for the remainder of that calendar year.  When I was still working, I usually reached this point by the middle of the year and I would be "tax free" for this category for the rest of the year.  Those in lower Federal tax brackets or even those who pay no Federal income tax because of the new deduction are still subject to taxation and that might be a significant part of their overall income.

As Warren Buffett has noted, his secretary is in a higher tax bracket than he is despite is much larger income.
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2019, 08:58:02 am »

Simpler, would be a straight ten percent taxation on whatever you earn - the moral being that ten per cent of a million feels as horrid to somebody earning that as does ten percent of ten grand, if that happens to be where you're at.

I firmly believe - know for a fact from from the small group of healthy earners I know/knew (my generation is on the extinction list) that money sitting in the bank is not thought the clever option - especially today. You invest it as cleverly as you know how, and try to make it grow. Investing it usually means into companies on the stock market, big players who in turn provide employment and, in good times, a reasonable return. Of course, the old advice holds: don't invest what you can't afford to lose.

In Spain, the reasoning is slightly different - at least at more humble levels closer to my own - where faith in governments and pensions is slim, to be generous about it. The objective is often to find enough dosh to enable the purchase of a second house or apartment with the intention of letting it out to provide the income old folks can mostly no longer earn. But even there, the taxman has spies and ears everywhere.

Rob

jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2019, 09:35:55 am »

Simpler, would be a straight ten percent taxation on whatever you earn

Then you will have to be clear about what is meant by "earn" :-)
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RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2019, 10:02:21 am »

Once again I'm insulted and pushed out.  Adieu and I can't use the term mes amis as it looks like I have precious few on this section of the forum.  I'll be careful an confine my postings to the technical sections of LuLa for the short period that it lives on.

Have fun with the ongoing food fight.

Golly, Alan, you didn't stay off long, did you?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2019, 10:17:27 am »

... I'll spare you the discussion of treatment of the indigenous Indians who are now largely confined to reservations...

You better (spare us). Because today nobody is confining them to the reservations but their own desire to stay there. They often get off the reservation and some even run for President.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2019, 10:32:36 am »

The problem isn't taxes.  The problem is spending.  We're doing too much of it more than taxes can pay for.  Even if we raise taxes, Congress would still spend more then we take in.  They're like drunken sailors, no disrespect to the navy.  Both sides - Republicans and Democrats.  They;re no different.  So we issue bonds and print money to make up the difference.  So we have have huge deficits and debt.    We can not keep that up.  It's unsustainable. 

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2019, 10:43:32 am »

The problem isn't taxes.  The problem is spending.  We're doing too much of it more than taxes can pay for.  Even if we raise taxes, Congress would still spend more then we take in.  They're like drunken sailors, no disrespect to the navy.  Both sides - Republicans and Democrats.  They;re no different.  So we issue bonds and print money to make up the difference.  So we have have huge deficits and debt.    We can not keep that up.  It's unsustainable.

Not a problem unique to the USA thatís certain.
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2019, 10:50:20 am »

Then you will have to be clear about what is meant by "earn" :-)


Fair enough: let's draw the initiation line at whatever annual earning it's worth the taxman's time collecting his ten percent. If it costs more to claw in ten percent of ten grand than the one grand it brings, but worth spending time on earnings of fifteen grand, then let the percentage kick in at fifteen Gs per year.

A million ten percents of an uneconomic starting rate will still cost a million unprofitable attempts at collection. I like to think so, at any rate.

Percent on what? On all your incomings. Share the misery!

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2019, 10:59:09 am »

Rob, thatís a brilliant approach!

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2019, 11:19:59 am »


Fair enough: let's draw the initiation line at whatever annual earning it's worth the taxman's time collecting his ten percent. If it costs more to claw in ten percent of ten grand than the one grand it brings, but worth spending time on earnings of fifteen grand, then let the percentage kick in at fifteen Gs per year.

A million ten percents of an uneconomic starting rate will still cost a million unprofitable attempts at collection. I like to think so, at any rate.

Percent on what? On all your incomings. Share the misery!

America is more successful at collecting taxes than Europe I believe.  First off, most people are employees.  The tax collector makes the employer responsible to pay upfront taxe of their employees.  So most of the Federal and State and Local tax payments are made by their employers and taken out of the regular salary check when the employees get paid.    Social Security and Medicare deduction are also made by the employer at the time he pays his employees.  There's not much "net" left.  :)

jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2019, 11:27:47 am »

Percent on what? On all your incomings. Share the misery!

Are incomings the same as earnings, then?
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jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2019, 11:29:20 am »

America is more successful at collecting taxes than Europe I believe. 

Yawn. Yes, Alan, we know America is Practically Perfect In Every Way. No need to remind us every post.
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RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2019, 12:11:15 pm »

Actually, Jeremy, America is more successful at a lot of things, including pulling other nations' butts out of the fire in wartime.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2019, 12:14:22 pm »

You better (spare us). Because today nobody is confining them to the reservations but their own desire to stay there. They often get off the reservation and some even run for President.

Really, or is this more fake news?

In case you are referring to Senator Warren, she is not an indigenous Indian, she only made a claim to some sliver of Native American heritage, so maybe you are trying to make a (racist?) remark about someone else?

Trump also didn't back his promise on this one:
"I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian," Trump said. "I have a feeling she will say no but hold it for the debates."

He was wrong.

Sen. Elisabeth Warren revealed that an analysis of genetic testing confirmed her distant Native American ancestry. Trump shrugged off the news and denied he made the big dollar wager.

Cheers,
Bart
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RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2019, 12:22:08 pm »

He was wrong.

Sen. Elisabeth Warren revealed that an analysis of genetic testing confirmed her distant Native American ancestry. Trump shrugged off the news and denied he made the big dollar wager.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart, give me a second to stop laughing and get up off the floor. Pocahontas's "Native American" ancestry turned out to be 1/1024%. I have more "Native American" ancestry than that, along with the vast majority of Americans. Trump won his bet.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2019, 12:24:19 pm »

... she is not an indigenous Indian...

--- an analysis of genetic testing confirmed her distant Native American ancestry...

Which is it, Bart? Make up your mind.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2019, 12:26:50 pm »

... Yes, Alan, we know America is Practically Perfect In Every Way...

And you will be able to enjoy it first-hand when you become our 51st state. Or 50th, if we kick-out California first.

32BT

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2019, 12:30:19 pm »

Actually, Jeremy, America is more successful at a lot of things, including pulling other nations' butts out of the fire in wartime.

Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

Hey, we saved you from tyranny 70 years ago, so now you have to eat our poisoned GMO foods, spend your money as we see fit, especially on military, which btw you should purchase from us, because, you know, we saved you from tyranny.

saved you from tyranny.
saved you from tyranny.

The odd thing of course is that that republican camp of yours seems to have a propensity for draft dodging candidates that slander and ignore actual god honest war heros, only to subsequently send the entire army into irrational wars and then issuing congressional medals of honor like there is no tomorrow.

You of all people should see the irony in that, no?

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2019, 12:42:01 pm »

... Hey, we saved you from tyranny 70 years ago, so now you have to... spend your money as we see fit, especially on military...

Well, Americans did save you 70 years ago. But also quite recently, saved your from the Soviets, gave you back half of Germany, and the whole Poland, Baltic states, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria. You are welcome.

As for the military, by all means feel free to spend however little you want on your military, once you get out of NATO and form your all-European army.
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