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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 120345 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #920 on: June 28, 2019, 05:31:15 pm »

... Combine this with reported voter suppression and things are not looking healthy. This undermines everything...

Oh, please. The only party that complains about voter suppression and gerrymandering is the losing party. When they win, they do not bother changing a thing, of course. Both parties, using the same system of "voter suppression," gerrymandaring, and electoral college, have been winning and losing interchangeably. If the system would favor just one side, only one side would be winning most of the time. This obviously is not the case.

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #921 on: June 28, 2019, 05:54:14 pm »

Exactly what our founders wanted.  A divided government.  The worse possible situation is when the President and the House and Senate are all run by the same party.  Then they force through stupid legislation that ticks off half the country like Obamacare under the Democrats and the new tax legislation under the Republicans.  When government is divided, little gets done.  That's great.  No new laws to take your freedoms away.  No more interference in your lives.  The more paralysis in Washington, the better it is.  Only people who like big government want a single political party to run things in Washington.  That way Washington can accrue more political power over our lives.  Better off when they can;t pass anything and leave the rest of us alone.

Don't have any idea what folks wanted all those years ago - probably neither does anyone else. However, you can hardly claim they got what you presume that they wanted. What you've actually got is a friggin'' dysfunctional political system that stands for nothing and everything; that seems unable to use common sense and take guns away from lunatics not because it can't but because the gun people pay so much money to keeping the guns rolling out and the coffins stacking up. Yet, irony of ironies, you get a dozen military coffins coming off aircraft and everbody sobs and reacts with pageantry as if military lives matter where civilian ones don't. There's more than a little ass before elbow in your system, but hey, as long as you don't get any new laws, it's cool, baby, cool! Until it's your kids get shot to hell in school or in the street.

Nope, nobody made it up.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #922 on: June 28, 2019, 06:35:06 pm »

Funny, Rob, how many people are risking life and limb to come to this "dysfunctional system."

LesPalenik

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #923 on: June 28, 2019, 07:02:05 pm »

Funny, Rob, how many people are risking life and limb to come to this "dysfunctional system."

Mainly from countries which are even in a bigger mess.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #924 on: June 28, 2019, 07:21:52 pm »

As an aside, it looks like Jimmy Carter is still saying Jimmy Carter things and CNN is all over it!  I have to wonder what more is involved then having a former FBI head with a team of 19 lawyers assisted by 41 FBI agents, with full access to all information and witnesses they wanted to see/interview, spending nearly two years to make it a "full investigation?" 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #925 on: June 28, 2019, 07:24:08 pm »

Mainly from countries which are even in a bigger mess.


Canada included? Justin Bieber, Celine Dion, etc.?

LesPalenik

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #926 on: June 28, 2019, 07:39:58 pm »

Canada included? Justin Bieber, Celine Dion, etc.?

Actually many Canadians are quite happy that those two are out of Canada.

Comedians seem to do also well in USA - i.e. Jim Carey, Dan Ackroyd, Howie Mandel, Leslie Nielsen and plenty others born In Canada.
Interestingly, David Frum, the political commentator (not that funny) who also wrote speeches for Bush, hails from Canada. He is not too keen on the current speech deliverer.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #927 on: June 28, 2019, 07:40:50 pm »

Funny, Rob, how many people are risking life and limb to come to this "dysfunctional system."

132,000 risking life and limb came here illegally in May they're so afraid of our government and system. Snuck or swam across the border.   Not including that poor father with his kid who drowned trying to get in to this terrible place.  I guess no one told them how dysfunctional we are. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #928 on: June 28, 2019, 07:47:34 pm »

132,000 risking life and limb came here illegally in May they're so afraid of our government and system. Snuck or swam across the border.   Not including that poor father with his kid who drowned trying to get in to this terrible place.  I guess no one told them how dysfunctional we are.

They came from an even more dysfunctional place ...

Bart
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #929 on: June 28, 2019, 07:56:24 pm »

I think Roberts agrees with Kagan. It will may be unfair.
 The problem Roberts thought was there was no effective way for the Supreme Court to enforce fare line drawing. There was no definition of what is fair. Or how would it be implemented and forced by the Supreme Court. So he deferred back to the States to avoid the never ending problem with trying to be a referee on the federal level.
Sam Wang, a professor of neuroscience at princeton,  has  done a lot of research on this topic.   He has published at least two law review articles on how to detect Gerrymandered districts that are statistical sound.   His group has filed Amicus briefs in several court cases including NC if I recall correctly.   Roberts and the majority are wrong, the are good tools that can be used and independent commissions already do this.   CA, who have the largest number of districts,  do this in a fair manner.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #930 on: June 28, 2019, 08:04:43 pm »

On top of that, popular votes are a horrible idea.  Most who advocate for them, do so under the assumption that a two party system would still be in effect.  However, the fact is that the electoral college is what encourages a two party system.  It is almost always the case that a third party candidate, regardless of how popular he/she might be, gets no electoral votes and is essentially doomed to obscurity.  Look at Ross Perot; he was the most popular third party candidate in recent history and still got 0 electoral votes.  This has the effect that there will almost always be a majority support for the winner, and in the few cases where not, a still very close to majority support. 

A popular votes would allow any number of people to run and would almost certainly
  there  were multiple parties on the early part of our nation's history.   Strom Thurmond got electoral votes on 1948 but winning for states. On 1968 George Wallace won four states.   Both those candidates ran racial segregation campaigns.   IIRC, the framers of the Constitution did not figure political parties into the concept of the electoral college.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #931 on: June 28, 2019, 08:05:41 pm »

Other countries do this.

Whatever bureau in the US analyzes weather can do so without political interference. I presume that they record what kind of cloud they're looking at without checking with their Senator first. The US Dept of Energy can manage its nuclear waste management mandate without political interference. The highway department can design and maintain highways and plow the snow without politicians getting too much involved, other than funding I mean. Politicians don't show up at the job site and tell the guys how to paint the lane markers, I hope.

You're making excuses, I feel. If the country wanted to create a bureau whose mandate was to manage the elections process free from political party involvement, you could do so. It's done all the time in many other places for decades now. Throwing up your hands and saying nothing can work is not very helpful. One could make a good case that democracy is being sabotaged by bizarre gerrymandering. The country can find all the excuses it wants to justify doing nothing about it, but to a lot of people, most importantly your own citizens, it is beginning to look like a non-functioning democracy. Combine this with reported voter suppression and things are not looking healthy. This undermines everything. Is this really what the "founding fathers" had in mind? I hope not.


It's not so simple.  Drawing lines is a political matter.  It's not like a weather man deciding where to place a weather station. 

For example, let's take a state with two election districts.  The state has one major city.  The rest of the state is rural, basically farm land.  The population is evenly divided between rural and urban with a slight advantage to Democrat in the cities.  Democrats run the legislature since they have more votes.  So how would you draw the lines to make up the two districts? 


Someone might say, let's divide the rural in half and the city in half and then combine them so each district is half urban and half rural.  That sounds fair.  But wait.  The people in this state feels they could have better representation in Congress if they split the districts so that one is all urban and the other rural.  That way, the representative for the farm area who knows the most about farming can represent 100% of the state's farming interests.  He won't waste time on urban issues he knows little about.  And the other representative who represents 100% of the urban area and knows the most about cities can represent the state's urban issues the best in Congress.  He won;t waste time representing the state's farm interest he knows nothing about. 

So now the second solution sounds fair.  But wait.  The urban voters are mainly Democrat and the rural area is mainly Republican. If the legislature votes the second, they'll be a Democrat and Republican in congress.  If they vote the first way,  there will be two Democrats in congress and no Republicans.  That sounds unfair.  But wait.  We originally said that was a fair way to draw the lines.  So now we ask the Supreme COurt to decide what's fair.  How the heck do they know?  Both ways really are fair even though party affiliation is different depending on the method.  That's why this is a political issue that has to be decided by each state's legislature.  The Supreme COurt did the right thing by getting out of the refereeing business because there is no way for it to make it "fair".  As Roberts said, there are no standards to make that determination unless COngress decides to make it  Certainly the courts can't do it because they can't choose between two fair methods or know how the legislature and people of any one state want to set up their representation in Congress.. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #932 on: June 28, 2019, 08:07:15 pm »

They came from an even more dysfunctional place ...

Bart

Well, if your country is so great, why don't you invite them to go there?  Why would you want them to come here?

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #933 on: June 28, 2019, 08:07:24 pm »

The solution employed in countries such as France is to vote over more than one round. All your hypothetical candidates stand in the first round; if none gets more than 50% of the vote, the most popular two stand against each other in the second round and the one with more votes (by definition, more than 50%) wins.

In a place the size of the USA, I suspect it would be a nightmare.

Jeremy
some states over here are using rank preference voting that does something similar.   I think one Congressional seat in 2018 was decided in this manner (maybe Maine).
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #934 on: June 28, 2019, 08:09:54 pm »

Sam Wang, a professor of neuroscience at princeton,  has  done a lot of research on this topic.   He has published at least two law review articles on how to detect Gerrymandered districts that are statistical sound.   His group has filed Amicus briefs in several court cases including NC if I recall correctly.   Roberts and the majority are wrong, the are good tools that can be used and independent commissions already do this.   CA, who have the largest number of districts,  do this in a fair manner.

Alan G.  Please see my Post #931.  How would you referee the situation described?

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #935 on: June 28, 2019, 08:13:20 pm »

Who will pick the people who draw the lines?   How will the picking process be any different with how political parties in power choose Supreme Court nominees?  No.  You'll be back at square one with so-called "independent" commissions.  It will still be a political process, (each State legislature decides the lines), the very point Roberts made in his decision.
you are wrong,  a number of states already do this.   Others have mechanisms in place to prevent Gerrymandering even when the legislature had the decision.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #936 on: June 28, 2019, 08:15:21 pm »

The Netherlands is also a very homogeneous country in a relatively small geography.  The USA is a very large country with quite mix of different cultures. 
there is a significant Moroccan population.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #937 on: June 28, 2019, 08:17:16 pm »

  there  were multiple parties on the early part of our nation's history.   Strom Thurmond got electoral votes on 1948 but winning for states. On 1968 George Wallace won four states.   Both those candidates ran racial segregation campaigns.   IIRC, the framers of the Constitution did not figure political parties into the concept of the electoral college.

The framers missed the implication of requirement that a president must get 51% of the electoral vote to win.  By setting up that rule, people realized very quickly they need to organize into parties to get the majority of popular votes to win.  So that forced the two-party situation for national and then subsequently state elections.  Minor third parties fell into non-existence because they knew they would never win an electoral vote or so few to be able to win the presidency. 

Maybe someone else can explain why you don't need two parties to elect a Prime Minister so that there are many parties in a parliamentary system.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #938 on: June 28, 2019, 08:18:57 pm »

  there  were multiple parties on the early part of our nation's history.   Strom Thurmond got electoral votes on 1948 but winning for states. On 1968 George Wallace won four states.   Both those candidates ran racial segregation campaigns.   IIRC, the framers of the Constitution did not figure political parties into the concept of the electoral college.
Both were Democrats.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #939 on: June 28, 2019, 08:19:24 pm »

Alan G.  Please see my Post #931.  How would you referee the situation described?
it is difficult for me to post links on my tablet.   Your concern has been addressed and I will try to remember to post some stuff when i get back from Canada
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