Papers and humidity question...

[Panagiotis]

Many framed prints of mine develop ripples when in a humid environment. The papers affected are all a-cellulose papers. RC papers are not affected. How cotton papers behave? Any other options, recommendations, advice? Thanks!

[mearussi]

Many framed prints of mine develop ripples when in a humid environment. The papers affected are all a-cellulose papers. RC papers are not affected. How cotton papers behave? Any other options, recommendations, advice? Thanks!

That paper absorbs water is nothing new. RC being plastic coated is far more resistant. 100% cotton, assuming it's high quality, can also warp (with thicker/heavier weight being more resistant to warpage) just not as bad as alpha cellulose.

FYI, if you want (or need) a 100% waterproof paper then print on 100% poly white film--expensive but looks really good, provided you want a high gloss surface.

[Panagiotis]

That paper absorbs water is nothing new. RC being plastic coated is far more resistant. 100% cotton, assuming it's high quality, can also warp (with thicker/heavier weight being more resistant to warpage) just not as bad as alpha cellulose.

FYI, if you want (or need) a 100% waterproof paper then print on 100% poly white film--expensive but looks really good, provided you want a high gloss surface.

Thanks for the input.
The papers affected more are the ones hanging on the wall. I believe that the proximity to the wall plays a roll.
Is it possible and effective to insulate somehow the back of the frame?

[mearussi]

Thanks for the input.
The papers affected more are the ones hanging on the wall. I believe that the proximity to the wall plays a roll.
Is it possible and effective to insulate somehow the back of the frame?

The idea is to seal the backboard/matboard/print/glass combination using a good archival tape around the edges before putting it in a frame. This should protect it from all environmental influences except sunlight.

[Panagiotis]

The idea is to seal the backboard/matboard/print/glass combination using a good archival tape around the edges before putting it in a frame. This should protect it from all environmental influences except sunlight.

Thanks!

[Alan Goldhammer]

My approach to framing 13x19 prints is to have a one inch border on all the sides so the image size becomes 11x17.  the print is fixed to quarter inch foam board with mylar corners and kept flat with an over mat that covers the one inch border.  It's not particularly elegant but I have some prints on all cotton paper that have been hanging in some offices for ten years that show no ripples at all.  I don't have much experience with 17x22 prints at this point in time to say if this approach works well.

[Garnick]

For the most part my job is to print the images for my customers who require the Fine Art Papers for their work.  However, I have over many years, framed quite a number of my own prints on various paper types including RC (both inkjet and silver emulsion) and Fine Art Papers.  I also have a number of friends run framing businesses.  With all or at least most of us the consensus is that a print that's totally taped down to a matte is very often a perfect recipe for ripples, warping etc.  That's the reason for hinging at the top and proper framing corners for the bottom of the print, therefore giving it some latitude for rippling and or warping due to the variations in humidity, heat etc.  And then of course there's the obvious - Gravity.  The only way of totally "sealing" the combination is to float mount the print and then, using double sided framing tape, adhere the matte to the mount board.  Of course the drawback to that is the assumption that a Fine Art Print should not be mounted, which leaves the approach I have mentioned above.  One might believe that "sealing" a print inside a frame, which can build up heat and humidity, is the way to protect it from rippling etc., but it can also become the main reason for such issues.  If it works for you that's fine, but it can sometimes take many years for such issues appear.  The "proper" method is perhaps not a 100% guarantee, but it does have a history of success and is also the method adopted by most galleries and print conservators, with perhaps slight diversions.

Gary

           

[Garnick]

My approach to framing 13x19 prints is to have a one inch border on all the sides so the image size becomes 11x17.  the print is fixed to quarter inch foam board with mylar corners and kept flat with an over mat that covers the one inch border.  It's not particularly elegant but I have some prints on all cotton paper that have been hanging in some offices for ten years that show no ripples at all.  I don't have much experience with 17x22 prints at this point in time to say if this approach works well.

Hi Alan ... Great name - my middle 

Yes, it would seem that your method is very close to the procedure I mentioned in my reply, leaving some room for the print to perhaps expand or contract due to environmental conditions etc.  Time will tell of course, but I'm sure ten years is quite sufficient as a predictor of future changes, which would seem to be probably zero at this point.

Gary A.   

[Panagiotis]

Thank you Alan and Gary.

The prints I am talking about are mostly 16"X16" and 16"X24", trimmed at the edge of the printed area (sometimes I add a 3-4mm black stroke border during printing) and framed without a matt by facing/touching the glass from the front side and a standard paper backing board to the back. The requirement is the print to start immediately after the frame without any kind of border,matt etc.
The problems maybe because the print is not actually hanging but sits by gravity at the bottom of the frame of because sometimes is very tight in the frame and there is no room to expand/contract.
I know that this is not a sound method but I don't know how to do it properly.

[Garnick]

Thank you Alan and Gary.

The prints I am talking about are mostly 16"X16" and 16"X24", trimmed at the edge of the printed area (sometimes I add a 3-4mm black stroke border during printing) and framed without a matt by facing/touching the glass from the front side and a standard paper backing board to the back. The requirement is the print to start immediately after the frame without any kind of border,matt etc.
The problems maybe because the print is not actually hanging but sits by gravity at the bottom of the frame of because sometimes is very tight in the frame and there is no room to expand/contract.
I know that this is not a sound method but I don't know how to do it properly.

As you have described the situation it's quite understandable that your framed prints could/would eventually submit to environmental issues as well as our old friend gravity.  It would seem that perhaps the prints are actually pressed up against the glass also, which in itself is a big no-no, although I doubt it's as much of an issue with cellulose based papers.  If I'm correct about that please advise.  From what you have mentioned it seems that you are restricted to a definite style of framing which might not be totally achievable for various reasons.  However, as I mentioned in my previous reply, I believe the only way you can prevent the rippling is to mount the prints on an acid free board before framing, and use frame spacers to prevent the print from touching the glass.  That would at least prevent the rippling issue.  If it were me I would dictate the framing "style" for displaying my prints.  If that's not an alternative in your case perhaps you should look for another location to display your work. 

Gary 
   

[Panagiotis]

As you have described the situation it's quite understandable that your framed prints could/would eventually submit to environmental issues as well as our old friend gravity.  It would seem that perhaps the prints are actually pressed up against the glass also, which in itself is a big no-no, although I doubt it's as much of an issue with cellulose based papers.  If I'm correct about that please advise.  From what you have mentioned it seems that you are restricted to a definite style of framing which might not be totally achievable for various reasons.  However, as I mentioned in my previous reply, I believe the only way you can prevent the rippling is to mount the prints on an acid free board before framing, and use frame spacers to prevent the print from touching the glass.  That would at least prevent the rippling issue.  If it were me I would dictate the framing "style" for displaying my prints.  If that's not an alternative in your case perhaps you should look for another location to display your work. 

Gary 
   

Thank you GAry.
How do you advice to mount the print on an acid free board? I could use two small strips of acid free double sided tape on the top and leave the print hanging from there. Do you think this will work?
Thank you again.

[Garnick]

Thank you GAry.
How do you advice to mount the print on an acid free board? I could use two small strips of acid free double sided tape on the top and leave the print hanging from there. Do you think this will work?
Thank you again.

The mounting procedure I'm referring to is "Dry Mounting".  The name implies that no liquid adhesives are used in the process, which is exactly what it means.  There is a large variety of Dry Mounting "presses" available, but I believe most dry mounting is now done with roller presses.  These presses can accommodate both heat activated adhesives and pressure sensitive adhesives, depending on the machine used.  For many years I have used a 24" roller press with pressure sensitive adhesives and surface laminates.  Apparently you are not aware of this method of mounting a print, so if you want to have your prints mounted your only choice would be to deal with a framer or perhaps a lab that does dry mounting. As far as your suggestion of taping the print at the top, that would be a step toward a better procedure than what you have been doing.  However, I would suggest that you not use double sided tape.  There is a particular framing tape (acid free) that is usually used for this purpose.  You can probably buy some of that tape from a local framer or perhaps an art supply store.  Once the print has been taped at the top there is one more step.  You should use corner "tabs" at the bottom.  I cannot think of the proper name for these "tabs", but there function is to hold pictures in family albums.  However, the ones I mentioned are used by framers and are oversized to accommodate some room for expansion or contraction of a print that has been hinge
mounted at the top.  If would suggest that you visit a local framer and ask them some questions.  You could probably buy some of the tape and "tabs" (not the proper name) from them and get a few pointers as well.  I imagine one of our other members will chime in with the proper name for the "tabs" I've mentioned, since I cannot think of it at the moment.

Whoops!!!  I was just about to post this when I thought about your situation again and the fact that you have very little room for a proper hinge mount, in which case you would probably have to use the double sided tape you mentioned.  However, that would definitely be a step better than what you have been doing so far.  I'm also not sure the "tabs" would work with your lack of room in the frame, but if they can fit I would advise using them as well.

EDIT:  Just one question.  Where do you buy your frames?  You may wonder why I would ask this question, since of course all frame are "created equally".  However, from personal experience I know that is NOT the case.

Gary         

 

[Jeffrey Saldinger]

I have heard Gary's "tabs" referred to as "corner pockets" or "framing corners."

[Panagiotis]

The mounting procedure I'm referring to is "Dry Mounting".  The name implies that no liquid adhesives are used in the process, which is exactly what it means.  There is a large variety of Dry Mounting "presses" available, but I believe most dry mounting is now done with roller presses.  These presses can accommodate both heat activated adhesives and pressure sensitive adhesives, depending on the machine used.  For many years I have used a 24" roll er press with pressure sensitive adhesives and surface laminates.  Apparently you are not aware of this method of mounting a print, so if you want to have your prints mounted your only choice would be to deal with a framer or perhaps a lab that does dry mounting. As far as your suggestion of taping the print at the top, that would be a step toward a better procedure than what you have been doing.  However, I would suggest that you not use double sided tape.  There is a particular framing tape (acid free) that is usually used for this purpose.  You can probably buy some of that tape from a local framer or perhaps an art supply store.  Once the print has been taped at the top there is one more step.  You should use corner "tabs" at the bottom.  I cannot think of the proper name for these "tabs", but there function is to hold pictures in family albums.  However, the ones I mentioned are used by framers and are oversized to accommodate some room for expansion or contraction of a print that has been hinge
mounted at the top.  If would suggest that you visit a local framer and ask them some questions.  You could probably buy some of the tape and "tabs" (not the proper name) from them and get a few pointers as well.  I imagine one of our other members will chime in with the proper name for the "tabs" I've mentioned, since I cannot think of it at the moment.

Whoops!!!  I was just about to post this when I thought about your situation again and the fact that you have very little room for a proper hinge mount, in which case you would probably have to use the double sided tape you mentioned.  However, that would definitely be a step better than what you have been doing so far.  I'm also not sure the "tabs" would work with your lack of room in the frame, but if they can fit I would advise using them as well.

EDIT:  Just one question.  Where do you buy your frames?  You may wonder why I would ask this question, since of course all frame are "created equally".  However, from personal experience I know that is NOT the case.

Gary         

 

Thank you Gary for the detailed response!

I think you mean photocorners.

I buy the custom frames from a local supplier in Athens, Greece.

I also have a proper double sided tape I believe.

I attach pictures of the frame and the tape.

Thank you again!

[Garnick]

Yes indeed - Corner Pockets, Framing Corners or Photo Corners.  They all sound much better than just plain old TABS    Problem is that I've never actually paid any attention to the name, I just use them when necessary.  Most of the time I print my own images on either Epson Luster or Fine Art paper (Hot or Cold pressed Natural).  The Luster and any Baryta papers are usually dry mounted and then matted, so for more than 15 years I have never experienced any "rippling" with any of my framed images.  The Fine Art papers are hinge mounted with the Tabs, Corner Pockets, Framing Corners or Photo Corners at the bottom, but not all on the same print of course.  Just my rather feeble attempt at humour, please forgive me for using valuable space. 

It seems to me that the tape you have displayed is exactly what you need for your purposes.  However, if you are pressing the print onto the glass you are possibly introducing another sort of dynamic, since the glass is a great conductor of heat and cold, as well as building up humidity which can cause the print to adhere to the glass over a period of time.  I've seen this happen in many case over the years of trying to release a print from glass and then scanning and restoring it digitally.  Retouching and restoration is one of the services I offer and I've seen a lot of mishandled prints in various degrees of deterioration.  But I must say that a cellulose based print would likely not adhere to glass as easily as a Luster or Gloss surface RC based print.  But again I must revert to your apparent restrictions concerning how you frame your prints for display, which is of course something you have to deal with.  I do hope that in some way we have been able to offer some helpful advise and that you will eventually be able to overcome the rippling/warping of your framed prints.

Gary         

[Panagiotis]

Yes indeed - Corner Pockets, Framing Corners or Photo Corners.  They all sound much better than just plain old TABS    Problem is that I've never actually paid any attention to the name, I just use them when necessary.  Most of the time I print my own images on either Epson Luster or Fine Art paper (Hot or Cold pressed Natural).  The Luster and any Baryta papers are usually dry mounted and then matted, so for more than 15 years I have never experienced any "rippling" with any of my framed images.  The Fine Art papers are hinge mounted with the Tabs, Corner Pockets, Framing Corners or Photo Corners at the bottom, but not all on the same print of course.  Just my rather feeble attempt at humour, please forgive me for using valuable space. 

It seems to me that the tape you have displayed is exactly what you need for your purposes.  However, if you are pressing the print onto the glass you are possibly introducing another sort of dynamic, since the glass is a great conductor of heat and cold, as well as building up humidity which can cause the print to adhere to the glass over a period of time.  I've seen this happen in many case over the years of trying to release a print from glass and then scanning and restoring it digitally.  Retouching and restoration is one of the services I offer and I've seen a lot of mishandled prints in various degrees of deterioration.  But I must say that a cellulose based print would likely not adhere to glass as easily as a Luster or Gloss surface RC based print.  But again I must revert to your apparent restrictions concerning how you frame your prints for display, which is of course something you have to deal with.  I do hope that in some way we have been able to offer some helpful advise and that you will eventually be able to overcome the rippling/warping of your framed prints.

Gary       

I learned a lot from this thread and all the contributions and I have now some new things to try.
Thank you very much!