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Author Topic: Notre-Dame Fire  (Read 1253 times)

Jonathan Cross

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2019, 01:50:39 pm »

Of course it is a tragedy.  Of course it must be rebuilt.  For 850 years an almost unimaginable number of people have been in it with their hopes and fears and many have found spiritual peace there.  In a world with much materialism, there need to be amazing spaces that resonate with people who want to experience more than the ephemera of everyday life.  I hope it is restored with all the skill and imagination that over the years have made it what it has been and can be again.

Best wishes,

Jonathan

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OmerV

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2019, 01:57:00 pm »

My condolences to our French friends.

I am crying as I am writing this. I am not Catholic, I am not even religious, but the cultural and historic loss is enormous. It survived 850 years.

Back in 2010, I took this photo inside the cathedral:

Your photo, very nice, Slobodan. So often interior pictures of churches exclude the religious purpose of them.

Rob C

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2019, 02:14:54 pm »

Can't help but think that a re-build will end up looking like a Disney theme park. The money would be better spent helping starving people in the world?

I have made a similar point over on TOP, but it takes a day or so for things to get vetted and posted; perhaps my divergent opinion will not be aired.

Regarding all of these things and their relevance, both culturally to the world and morally to everyone concerned, this event doesn't even begin to rate with 9/11 as disaster on every scale of human thought.

In the case of the Glasgow fires at the art school, my view would be to raze the place to the ground and create a brand new, contemporary design and probably from somebody who has had a hand in building modern Chicago as seen through the prism of one Slobodan Blagojevic.

Having lived in a city full of old, ugly buildings masquerading as art, oh! for a breath of fresh air. I tend to believe that unremitting physical bleakness can't but help impress itself upon the lives, minds and expectations of those exposed to it all their days.

My first studio was a large top-floor apartment in a part-commercial and part-residential building owned by my father-in-law; it was as ugly as sin and Charlie Dickens would have felt instantly at home, or at least, many of his characters would. The building was bought with an eye to future selling upon retirement, but it turned out to be blighted, and I choose that word carefully, with a level of listing that even controlled the type of cleaning allowed to the external surface. An unmitigated fiscal disaster that meant the survival of one of the most unpleasant looking things it has been my lot to enter. There is a madness (and political power) at play in many of those types of "conservation" concepts that belies reality and even basic concepts of good aesthetics.

Everything has its time, then it's time for the new.

Rob

amolitor

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2019, 02:49:59 pm »

Well, Rob, it looks like Mike moderated your remarks through, but took exception to them. I was disheartened to see him referencing Stephen Pinker, who is one of those irritating buggers who thinks that expertise in one rather narrow specialty translates to expertise in, well, everything else.

I predict that they'll try to put Notre Dame back the way it was, but hold out hope they'll do something interesting and fun instead. Paris would hate it for a generation, and then love it until it fell. See also the Transamerica pyramid in San Francisco.
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rabanito

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2019, 02:50:34 pm »

Ross Douthat wrote a thoughtful piece on what the destruction might mean to Catholics. As he is Catholic, it is clear Notre-Dame is still significant to the faith.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/opinion/notre-dame-fire-catholic-church.html

PS The article may require a subscription.

Well I don't know that person Douthat  but I doubt that this church building means to the catholic faith more than to most children of our civilization.

For a Catholic God is everywhere, it doesn't matter in which church or shack you worship.
Or so they say
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2019, 02:53:47 pm »

May I kindly suggest to refrain from political bickering or baiting in THIS thread?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2019, 02:55:54 pm »

Your photo, very nice, Slobodan. So often interior pictures of churches exclude the religious purpose of them.

Thank you. Two more from the same visit:

Rob C

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2019, 03:10:37 pm »

Well I don't know that person Douthat  but I doubt that this church building means to the catholic faith more than to most children of our civilization.

For a Catholic God is everywhere, it doesn't matter in which church or shack you worship.
Or so they say


I don't believe in religion as my route to salvation, because religion is the reporting/invention/politics of ancient days viewed today.

That said, I most certainly do believe in a power of some sort that may be divine or something quite else, but it appears to me that there truly is a universal moral compass we fail to use at our own cost and peril. Abuses of basic humanity and good behaviour are obvious all around us; it doesn't take religious teaching (as a kid I was exposed to both Catholic and fundamentalist Protestant indoctrinations, the latter the more bizarre) to understand that we eventually do pay for our actions. That I survived it all is a credit to my family that never tried to push me one way or the other. But then it always was a strange collection individuals, which probably explains quite a lot.

Without doubt there is a comfort in spending time alone with one's thoughts and figuring out the whys of life and the things that are really important and those but conceits. Spiritual life seems to make one more content with one's lot because it also has the ability of putting a perspective on things. Therein, of course, lies the dangers of political machinations and the subjugation of peoples through religious conviction.

Brexit is far more simple to debate!

Rob
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 03:37:25 pm by Rob C »
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rabanito

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2019, 04:06:09 pm »


I don't believe in religion as my route to salvation, because religion is the reporting/invention/politics of ancient days viewed today.


Rob

Rob let's give the blame to my poor Englisch

What I mean is that in re: Notre Dame de Paris  - the disaster is the same for a religious as for a non-religious person
For the religious person because of his religious symbolic, for the non-religious for his historic or artistic or whatever.

I mean, for a catholic it is not sadder than for a non-catholic
And most people see in it one of many symbols of our civilization. From where many of us come from, religious or not.

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Rob C

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2019, 04:32:53 pm »

Rob let's give the blame to my poor Englisch

What I mean is that in re: Notre Dame de Paris  - the disaster is the same for a religious as for a non-religious person
For the religious person because of his religious symbolic, for the non-religious for his historic or artistic or whatever.

I mean, for a catholic it is not sadder than for a non-catholic
And most people see in it one of many symbols of our civilization. From where many of us come from, religious or not.


No, I'm not misunderstamding your English, which is pretty damned good. I am thinking about the symbolism behind all of those structures built upon religious belief and, in their day, religious murder. Ask the Cathars in the south of France what they thought of it all - had any survived popes who told the armies to kill 'em all, friend or foe, because God knew his own, so it was okay. Way to go!
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

That said, I hoped to enjoy a programme this evening about Calcutta, only to find myself listening to an Englishwoman (? - she may be Welsh or whatever) doing the contemporary, politically correct number of rewriting the story of the British in India and making apologies to anyone who would stand still and listen. I lasted about twenty minutes before my fuse blew and I reverted to the iPad.

Today, those things are about tourism and the broader economy. In fact, in France, for all I know there may even be more life in the building of mosques than of churches. Perhaps some enterprising Frenchman will think of Joel Meyerowitz and become ensconced in the clearing and recovery of the old kirk; can be a good little earner.

:-)
 

Rob C

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2019, 04:39:14 pm »

Well, Rob, it looks like Mike moderated your remarks through, but took exception to them. I was disheartened to see him referencing Stephen Pinker, who is one of those irritating buggers who thinks that expertise in one rather narrow specialty translates to expertise in, well, everything else.

I predict that they'll try to put Notre Dame back the way it was, but hold out hope they'll do something interesting and fun instead. Paris would hate it for a generation, and then love it until it fell. See also the Transamerica pyramid in San Francisco.


Thanks, Andrew; I rushed out a response on the iPad, which though it lets me do my penning in comfort, can get me into the dreaded time-out situation on TOP where all is lost because unlike with the computer, I can't get it together with highlighting, saving and then reopening the site to paste what I have saved. I know, old men and yound people's toys!

Better than television these days, though!

Rob

OmerV

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2019, 05:30:46 pm »

Well I don't know that person Douthat  but I doubt that this church building means to the catholic faith more than to most children of our civilization.

For a Catholic God is everywhere, it doesn't matter in which church or shack you worship.
Or so they say

Actually, Ross Douthat says something similar to your sentiment.

Rob let's give the blame to my poor Englisch

What I mean is that in re: Notre Dame de Paris  - the disaster is the same for a religious as for a non-religious person
For the religious person because of his religious symbolic, for the non-religious for his historic or artistic or whatever.

I mean, for a catholic it is not sadder than for a non-catholic
And most people see in it one of many symbols of our civilization. From where many of us come from, religious or not.



Well, you should be correct but the reality is different. The destruction of a humble rural church would mean nothing to the world, but would be everything to the congregation of that church. So while Notre-Dame is considered a cultural treasure, it may be only in so far as the capriciousness of taste and usefulness allows it. After all, the building is an exorbitant expense which luckily is a popular tourist attraction.

rabanito

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2019, 05:31:21 pm »


No, I'm not misunderstamding your English, which is pretty damned good. I am thinking about the symbolism behind all of those structures built upon religious belief and, in their day, religious murder. Ask the Cathars in the south of France what they thought of it all - had any survived popes who told the armies to kill 'em all, friend or foe, because God knew his own, so it was okay. Way to go!
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

Thanks Rob for the compliment about my damned English  ;D Good for my ego  ;)

I know about the Albigensians, about the nice Soeur Sourire singing nice songs about Dominique-nique-nique etc
I know also about Troy, about Jericho, about Jerusalem and the crusaders, about Rwanda, about Auschwitz and Co and I could continue with a long list
That's more the human condition, I guess.
What can we do? Commit Seppuku together?
That's us, not this or that religion. Just my humble opinion
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MMitchell

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2019, 05:38:16 pm »

I don't see the God issue much differently than the cathedral issue. Both are old and well-documented by people whom we scarcely understand because of the radical difference in cultures. As to rebuilding the cathedral, we face two things (as I see at the moment): One is the historic glory, which may be restorable to a fair extent, and one is the opportunity to make the rebuilding relevant to the current time and the people who support it.

I think we have to be humble enough to admit that despite our wonderful technology and understanding of ancient things today, that we really can't duplicate the things that were dictated by the intent of the original builders, or those who made modifications up to a few hundred years ago.

The opportunity to update the relevance is interesting insofar as who gets behind it with whose money, and who the Church and State consider to be the rightful owners of the property (I'll just bet it's not as clear-cut as a 99-year lease).
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rabanito

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2019, 05:52:37 pm »

Do what?

"Would do" in the sense of "enough or suitable for a particular purpose"
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2019, 06:33:21 pm »

Wonder if the hunchback found temporary quarters.

He did.

Jeremy
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RSL

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2019, 07:45:15 pm »

Thanks, Jeremy. I'm glad to know he'll be comfortable until the church is rebuilt.

Rob C

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2019, 04:21:31 am »

Thanks, Jeremy. I'm glad to know he'll be comfortable until the church is rebuilt.

Quasimodo. Not a lot of people knows that he was named after a camera setting: an "almost" mode that lives just next to M.

Aren't you glad y'all came here today?

;-)

rabanito

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2019, 04:52:20 am »

Quasimodo. Not a lot of people knows that he was named after a camera setting: an "almost" mode that lives just next to M.

Hehe.
But anyway thanks for making me look it up in the Internet, i didn't know the meaning of the name

"quasimodo (n.)

"Low Sunday," 1706, Quasimodo Sunday, from Latin quasi modo, first words of introit for the first Sunday after Easter: quasi modo geniti infantes "as newborn babes" (1 Peter ii.2). The hunchback in Victor Hugo's novel was supposed to have been abandoned as an infant at Notre Dame on this day, hence his name.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 11:16:00 am by rabanito »
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Krug

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Re: Notre-Dame Fire
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2019, 08:16:54 am »

I know that it is Coffee Corner and that it is my own fault to have wandering in but surely as photographers - whom I would have thought are by definition either artists or at least interested in art and culture - we could refrain from bickering about something as gut wrenching as the damage to a wonderful cultural monument as Notre Dame.
Recently my 30 year old grandson despaired of the Brexit chaos and the current farrago in Canadian politics as being like  "groups of high school debaters pretending to be a government" - I guess that also they have insinuated themselves here. Please grow up and just potter off to the nearest bar.

No specific names in mind just a general plea.
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John Ashbourne
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