Color Space and Photoshop Elements

[walter.sk]

I've never used Elements, only Photoshop and Lightroom.  I run the competitions in a photo club and ask people to submit jpegs for digital projection in 8-bit color with sRGB as the color space.  A number of images come in untagged or as Adobe RGB.  After I mentioned this at the last competition I got a request from an Elements 15 user who said that his files get a Display P3 designation in Elements.  When I looked at his submitted jpegs, they were untagged.  What is the way, using Elements, to convert a file from Element's working space to sRGB?

[digitaldog]

Untagged RGB is mystery meat; no way to know the color space but the best guess is sRGB.
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/setting-color-management.html

[Alan Klein]

We're running a contest with digital display.  We didn't mention color space or bits.  Does it matter or will the projector handle whatever? 

[digitaldog]

We're running a contest with digital display.  We didn't mention color space or bits.  Does it matter or will the projector handle whatever?

Yes it matter as does the application sending the data to the projector.

[Alan Klein]

Andrew, We only tell people to submit jpegs, any size.  What should we tell them to submit?  (I don;t know the projector model they'll be using.  I know the judges use a laptop with the submitted photo files to connect to the projector.  Before the contest starts, they do some sort of an display adjustment with the ambient light turned down  to adjust the projector's output).   

[digitaldog]

Andrew, We only tell people to submit jpegs, any size.  What should we tell them to submit?  (I don;t know the projector model they'll be using.  I know the judges use a laptop with the submitted photo files to connect to the projector.  Before the contest starts, they do some sort of an display adjustment with the ambient light turned down  to adjust the projector's output).

The projector is moot, this isn't any different than using a display. What application is being used to access the JEPGs and is it ICC (color management) aware? If so, and it should be, then the images need to be in a tagged color space. At the very least, sRGB.

[Alan Klein]

OK  We'll tell people to submit in sRGB which they're probably doing anyway.  These "senior"  photographers are mainly amateurs.  There might be a few who shoot in pro photo, adobe, or whatever.  But they should know to export from PS in sRGB.  I'll remind them.  Thanks.

[walter.sk]

Untagged RGB is mystery meat; no way to know the color space but the best guess is sRGB.
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/setting-color-management.html

Thanks for the link, Andrew.  Just what the doctor ordered.

[Alan Klein]

The projector is moot, this isn't any different than using a display. What application is being used to access the JEPGs and is it ICC (color management) aware? If so, and it should be, then the images need to be in a tagged color space. At the very least, sRGB.

I checked with the guy handling this.  He says that he just uses the laptop operating system, no special software. 

[digitaldog]

I checked with the guy handling this.  He says that he just uses the laptop operating system, no special software.

But he IS using software and that's rather important.

[Alan Klein]

But he IS using software and that's rather important.

Will the laptop operating system software, then, take care of the color management issue as far displaying it correctly thru the projector?  Or should we just tell the participants to submit only jpegs with sRGB.

[digitaldog]

Will the laptop operating system software, then, take care of the color management issue as far displaying it correctly thru the projector? 

How would I know? You've told us NOTHING about the OS or the software.

Or should we just tell the participants to submit only jpegs with sRGB.

Without color management, sRGB is a meaningless concept!



sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2
In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:
When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices
How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check
The downsides of an all sRGB workflow
sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices
The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology
Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output


High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4
Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs

[Alan Klein]

I watched your video.  Thanks.  So since I don;t know what they're using as far as the computer and projector and whether any of it is color managed, I'll tell everyone to submit sRGB.

As an aside, I shoot in RAW + jpeg.  The camera has a color gamut choice: AdobeRGB or sRGB.   From what you said on the video, I should shoot in Adobe RGB because of its wider color gamut.  Once processed in Lightroom, I can output sRGB for the web and other types of display equipment.  Would I then use Adobe RGB or the print processor's color space when outputting for printing?  I'm confused on this point.

ANother question: If you select AdobeRGB in a camera that also has sRGB as a selection, when shooting RAW + jpeg, what capture gamut is each of the two files?

[digitaldog]

ANother question: If you select AdobeRGB in a camera that also has sRGB as a selection, when shooting RAW + jpeg, what capture gamut is each of the two files?

Doesn't affect the raw whatsoever. Raw is raw. It only affects the JPEG. And when you shoot raw+JPEG, one isn't ideally exposed; the raw. So not such a good idea.

[Alan Klein]

 

Doesn't affect the raw whatsoever. Raw is raw. It only affects the JPEG. And when you shoot raw+JPEG, one isn't ideally exposed; the raw. So not such a good idea.

Why?  Are you saying I should only shoot RAW?

[digitaldog]

Why?  Are you saying I should only shoot RAW?

One or the other IF you wish to ideally expose for the data.
https://luminous-landscape.com/the-optimum-digital-exposure/

[jrsforums]

I think the discussion started about projecting digital images at a camera club.  The premise was jpegs would be submitted and the question was about requiring a color space (sRGbB, aRGB, etc) and what to do with ‘untagged’.

Alan Klein mentioned a laptop.  If the laptop was a PC (I’m lost about Macs), free software such as Irfanview and Faststone are “color aware” and will recognized the jpeg color space and convert to the color space of the monitor profile.  I believe (not sure) if it is ‘untagged’, they will assume sRGB.

The biggest problem is the projector.  I have seen really bad projection setups, better ones, but never good ones (I'm sure some professional setups do, but I have never seen them and have seen some people really try). 

As I understand it (limited knowledge admitted), projectors are really difficult to profile properly.  Then, most laptops (at least PCs) do not usually have graphic adapters which can support two profiles (projector/2nd monitor and built in monitor) and most free software is not built to support dual output.  At best, the user can set the display profile to the one for the projector, but rarely do this as the monitor screen will then be off.

Possibly Andrew can provide advice to Alan and the OP on what best software to use how best to set up a projector on a laptop (when provided with what hardware and OS is used).

[Alan Klein]

Thanks John:  The club has done this before for competitions.  Color spaces for the image files were never specified, only jpegs were called for.  In past contests, I hadn't noticed anything regarding colors that are that out of whack.  But then again, unless you can compare to the original, it's hard to say.  My own submittals in sRGB looked ok although the projection was a little too dark.  They did a light output adjustment against ambient lighting before the contest began to calibrate the projector.  It still was too dark in my opinion.   Having said that, I thought there might be a good suggestion regarding this issue but it seems there are too many variables.  When I asked the question about color spaces, etc.  to the people handling the camera and judge, they didn't even know what I was talking about.  Heck, I don't know what I'm talking about.

In any case, the laptop has a "contest" program used for doing such photo competitions. I don;t know the name of it.  It keeps track of the judge's scores, totals scores, selects first second and third winners etc. etc. It cycles through the pictures submitted for the contest.  So I imagine it's this program that may handle the color output to the projector.  But who knows?  No one else in the competition seems concerned except me or knowledgeable to care. I'll try to get the name of the software they're using.  Maybe that will help get an answer.  Thanks everyone for your input.

[digitaldog]

Single DLP chip projectors suck eggs for images. See for yourself:
https://colorlightoutput.com


https://colorlightoutput.com/videos/Color-brightness-technical-video.mp4

[Doug Gray]

Single DLP chip projectors suck eggs for images. See for yourself:
https://colorlightoutput.com


https://colorlightoutput.com/videos/Color-brightness-technical-video.mp4

Wow! That video explains why single DLP projectors have such crappy gamuts. I had no idea they added white (clear actually) rotating segments to boost the max white illuminance. That's going to shrink the gamut of the more luminous colors a lot. Well inside sRGB for the brighter colors.

The free downloadable standard has a lot of detail for measuring important metrics of displays as well. Actually, it concentrates on displays but includes relevant projector and reflector screen metrics as well.

Thanks for posting Andrew.