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Author Topic: Lightroom 8.2  (Read 5543 times)

DP

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2019, 08:55:02 pm »

but the results of the new feature isn't the raw
they are, for a start, in demosaicked "raw" file (that new linear DNG) - from that point onwards Adobe shall work identically with original raws and linear DNGs (unless Adobe added some new tags in DNG spec instructing the code behind the scene to treat those linear DNGs differently... did you see any changes in DNG standard ?)... hence as noted beats me why they can't simply create a new process version taking care about demosaicking part at least, and let people with sufficiently powerful machines to use that w/o generating linear DNGs files, residing in storage space...  people w/ lesser computers can still do "batch" conversion first...
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2019, 08:57:01 pm »

they are, for a start, in demosaicked raw file - from that point onwards Adobe shall work identically with original raws and linear DNGs (unless Adobe added some new tags in DNG spec instructing the code behind the scene to treat those linear DNGs differently... did you see any changes DNG standard ?)... hence as noted beats me why they can't simply create a new process version taking care about demosaicking part at least, and let people with sufficiently powerful machines to use that w/o generating linear DNGs files, residing in storage space...  people w/ lesser computers can still do "batch" conversion first...
I understand why it beats you. I understand why you don't work for Adobe, conduct prerelease for them too. ;)
As to what will happen, once my NDA is up, I'll let you know.  ;D
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2019, 10:07:28 pm »

So if not a RAW converter process, then it may be similar to what Focus Magic does...

While I'm hesitant as to what benefits "Enhanced Details" really brings in comparison to the proven record of FocusMagic, in theory, it could nudge the output to higher quality.

It would be interesting indeed, to see how much it does (if any). Since I'm not a subscriber to a (or most) software subscription(s) system, I cannot myself do a test and publish the results (which I usually do).

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2019, 10:22:02 pm »

Why on earth are there people still using Windows!?

Or Mac OS, for that matter. Nerds use Linux.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2019, 10:35:26 pm »

This is just an illustration of the artifact:

Whoa, but that's a really piss poor Raw conversion. Whatever produced that should be banned from serious use.
It should not be hard to improve on that...

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2019, 11:01:30 pm »

Whoa, but that's a really piss poor Raw conversion. Whatever produced that should be banned from serious use.
It should not be hard to improve on that...

Cheers,
Bart
Maybe one should convert a JPEG to raw first for that improvement?  ::)
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Andrew Rodney
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2019, 11:08:24 pm »

Maybe one should convert a JPEG to raw first for that improvement?  ::)

??????

Cheers,
Bart
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2019, 12:48:34 am »

Mixed bag on the files I tried it with. Some of them I could honestly see no difference at all other than the enhanced file was initially rotated 90 degrees counter clockwise. After a while you can kind of get a feel for what files will benefit from it. As has been noted diagonal crisp lines show improvements. The rendering around specula highlights are also smoother.

Took about 10 seconds on my machine for a Sony APSC file. Will try it with the bigger Sony files when I have the time.
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2019, 10:46:36 am »


AFAIK, there are only two people here posting who had any experience, under NDA, speaking with Adobe engineers like Simon Chen and Eric Chan about the development of Enhanced Detail last year as it was being developed and tested. Here are some facts, as much as I can provide under NDA and the facts can be corroborated by other betas.


Adobe didn't wake up on day and thought, "let's produce a new rendering process that forces people to take the time to convert raw to linear DNG and extra space" because they felt those two attributes were good for customers workflows per se. They did it that way because that's the way, for now, the feature had to be implemented. The "why did Adobe do this" question was asked last year. What happens in the future may change. Asking today why this was implemented as it was, especially by people who don't have a clue about the ACR processing code, marketing people who work for competing companies of Adobe who may or may not know how their own software code actually works, is as silly as me asking why my 2017 Mazda CX5 doesn't run on electricity or why my iPhone X doesn't receive G5.


Adobe didn't claim this feature is for everyone or works well on every image. They did testing with Enhanced Detail with Siemens Star resolution charts showing a 30% increase of resolution (NOT increase of pixels!). They didn't claim more, they didn't state this was true for all images and cameras that capture this data.


There is of course a before and after preview and the ideal zoom ratio to examine whether it's worthwhile converting the data to a linear DNG so users can see, on a case by case basis if they wish to convert and use Enhanced Detail.


The same people asking why this is, are some of the same people who spent post after post, page after page defending Topaz Lab's claim they convert JPEG to raw and can edit a JPEG as if it were a raw without any evidence to defend those claims. Adobe can defend the claim that in some captures, Enhanced Detail will enhance the detail. As can users. They cannot "defend" why one must convert the data to a linear DNG to the degree they explained their processing to those under NDA. Nor can they defend that if you use LR or Photoshop to convert a wide gamut image to sRGB, you'll clip colors. That's how it works kids. Unlike Topaz, they will not use marketing shills to state they can produce stuff that doesn't exist and processing that can't be backed up.


Now this is a new feature and it will evolve. One issue is the amount of processing and OS support needed today (simply examine the OS requirements for Enhanced Detail to work, one OS being just released a few months ago). Few here have any experience producing software. I have a little. Yeah, it is possible that ED (Enhanced Detail for short) could be produced directly from the raw without a DNG intermediate but what if 8% of the user based had hardware support for it? Wouldn't fly well now would it. What happens in the future happens. TODAY, if you want to use ED, you convert to a linear DNG and if you're smart, you view the preview first instead of doing a batch convert. How you'll handle this in a year is your guess. Some of us will know before that.
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2019, 11:21:09 am »

Or Mac OS, for that matter. Nerds use Linux.

Unfortunately, Adobe do not port their programs to Linux.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2019, 11:25:53 am »

Now this is a new feature and it will evolve. One issue is the amount of processing and OS support needed today (simply examine the OS requirements for Enhanced Detail to work, one OS being just released a few months ago). Few here have any experience producing software. I have a little. Yeah, it is possible that ED (Enhanced Detail for short) could be produced directly from the raw without a DNG intermediate but what if 8% of the user based had hardware support for it? Wouldn't fly well now would it. What happens in the future happens. TODAY, if you want to use ED, you convert to a linear DNG and if you're smart, you view the preview first instead of doing a batch convert. How you'll handle this in a year is your guess. Some of us will know before that.
I'm sure you know better than I about this need for a conversion but I put faith in Adobe engineers as well.  If they felt this was the right way to approach the issue regarding the development of the tool there must have been a darn good reason.  Your statement that I highlighted is the wisest course at the moment.  I don't think one knows how widely applicable this tool will be.
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Aram Hăvărneanu

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2019, 12:38:31 pm »

Unfortunately, Adobe do not port their programs to Linux.

Which is a shame. Photoshop used to run on Unix (IRIX and Solaris): http://i.imgur.com/Lzlbyp9.jpg.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2019, 01:48:15 pm »

Here are some facts, as much as I can provide under NDA and the facts can be corroborated by other betas.

Interesting background, Andrew.  One question: is the DNG file that is produced by the Enhance Details tool a typical linear DNG?  I wasn't able to fully understand your dialog with Simon Chen over on the Adobe support forum.  I got the impression from what the two of you were saying that this is some sort of new flavor of DNG container.

john beardsworth

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2019, 01:53:05 pm »

Without checking, I think it's slightly different, Chris. The original file is embedded, and there's RGGB demosaiced data.

digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2019, 02:16:58 pm »

Interesting background, Andrew.  One question: is the DNG file that is produced by the Enhance Details tool a typical linear DNG?  I wasn't able to fully understand your dialog with Simon Chen over on the Adobe support forum.  I got the impression from what the two of you were saying that this is some sort of new flavor of DNG container.
It is different, that's why it's so much larger too. There's actually two variants of the linear DNG in the container. Only LR/ACR currently understands the enhanced detail part of the DNG. But other converters that properly support DNG can access that part of the data which hasn't undergone Enhanced Detail.
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Andrew Rodney
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Chris Kern

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2019, 02:48:06 pm »

The original file is embedded, and there's RGGB demosaiced data.

Only LR/ACR currently understands the enhanced detail part of the DNG. But other converters that properly support DNG can access that part of the data which hasn't undergone Enhanced Detail.

Observation:

The enhanced file seems to behave very much like a raw file: i.e., Lightroom adjustments appear to work identically on the original raw file and the enhanced one, unlike a typical rendered image where attributes like color balance are "baked in."  When I copy all the settings I have made to the raw file to the enhanced one, I wind up with two visually identical images, as far as I can tell—except for the enhanced details, if any.

Speculation:

I don't know much about computational image processing, but I've noticed that some tools that are publicly accessible, for example the Deep Dream generator, offer the capability to perform the same transformation several times.  It occurs to me that the reason for embedding the original raw file in the enhanced DNG container might be to facilitate some future form of iterative processing.

digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2019, 02:52:54 pm »

Observation:
The enhanced file seems to behave very much like a raw file: i.e., Lightroom adjustments appear to work identically on the original raw file and the enhanced one, unlike a typical rendered image where attributes like color balance are "baked in."  When I copy all the settings I have made to the raw file to the enhanced one, I wind up with two visually identical images, as far as I can tell—except for the enhanced details, if any.
It isn't 'as raw' but 'more raw' than a fully rendered image. See:
https://dpbestflow.org/DNG
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/linear.htm
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Andrew Rodney
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Chris Kern

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2019, 03:52:16 pm »

It isn't 'as raw' but 'more raw' than a fully rendered image.

"Undercooked?  "Very rare?"  (Definitely not "half-baked.")

AndrewMcD

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2019, 05:33:11 pm »

Now that we've resolved the ED problem, can we get back to Mac vs PC?
<ducking>
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 8.2
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2019, 05:53:05 pm »

Now that we've resolved the ED problem, can we get back to Mac vs PC?
<ducking>
Why don’t we discuss the subject, “Lightroom 8.2”? 

Take Mac v pc elsewhere!!
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John
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