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Author Topic: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?  (Read 1245 times)

KLaban

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2019, 10:32:36 pm »

I'm wondering how the wider M series lenses will behave with these Panasonic bodies? Better than Nikon Z?
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BJL

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - OM-D E-M1X tech. trickle down?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 08:58:22 am »

... after Oly apparently blew their resources on an odd duck ...
My guess is that not a lot of resources were spent for the sake of the EM1x alone, because most of the new technology in it will carry over to future OM-D models. In particular, the improved IBIS, related hand-held high res. mode, and virtual ND/HD mode will likely appear in an "E-M1 Mk III", and hopefully also in an "E-M5 Mk III", which is "due".
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2019, 10:27:09 am »

I guess that the only question is whether Sigma will only produce dedicated lenses for this mount or for Z and R also...

Super tough question for them.


Not really, I think they will try to do lenses for R and Z system, they are already doing lenses for the E system. I suppose their main problem is to reverse engineer the mounts, that can take time to have an stable version of the lens mount that is able to talk with the camera.

davidgp

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for? Not for most MFT users!
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2019, 10:37:24 am »

The lens designs (minimal focus breathing, etc.), weight, and prices suggest two things:
  • The system is heavily oriented to photographers wanting a serious, even "cinematic", level of video capabilities along with stills.
  • It is not going to steal away a substantial fraction of customers who were previously choosing Micro Four Thirds! Panasonic, like Fujifilm (and I suggest, Canon), is aiming systems in two different formats at quite distinct parts of the "post SLR" market for interchangeable lens cameras. (A market that Panasonic originated with the DMC-G1, by the way.)

I completely agree with Dave. The lenses without focus breathing and the manual clutch for manual focusing... this cameras are clearly to appeal all people that love GH5 cameras. I'm not a real fan of the paid upgrade for having 4k/60p, but this will be probably be the best video camera for video, and Panasonic is a real trusted brand between videographers.

Why the jump to FF? If you hear people like the president of Canon saying that the camera market will still go down for some years to stabilized in a 50% of the market that we have right now... it is clear that this is not becoming a high number market, to make money, you need to sell high end equipment, it is easier to justify the expensive price in FF than in M43.

Dan Wells

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2019, 01:00:54 pm »

One question - and a tidbit...

18 Sigma lenses in the near future? Unless Sigma has a much bigger lens design department than I think they do (or than Canon, Nikon, Sony or Fuji have), at least most of those are going to be DSLR lenses with the adapter built in, not dedicated mirrorless designs.  Are any of those 18 lenses going to be true redesigns?

It's easy enough to take a DSLR lens, stretch it an inch on the back end with no glass in the back, and call it a mirrorless lens, while it's a lot harder to redesign a lens to take advantage of a new mount. The mirrorless mounts are similar enough that a true mirrorless lens should fit them all (with the possible exception of the narrower FE for some lenses). They'll probably all come out for multiple systems - there are already 14 or so FE mount Sigmas, all of which are stretched DSLR lenses (to Sigma's credit, they admit it, placing the lenses in their DSLR series despite the mirrorless mount).

 I really wouldn't call a stretched lens anything different from a manufacturer adapter lens (F on Z, EF on EOS-R, A on FE). There is a difference between a stretched or manufacturer adapter lens and a cross-adapted lens, because both the tolerances and the electronics can be issues with cross-brand adapters, especially the cheaper ones.

DPReview mentioned (with no source for their information) that the Panasonic sensor is NOT BSI... This indicates that it isn't a Sony derivative. What is it? Sony has had a one or two generation lead over any competitor in the large-sensor game (notably Canon, but also the various sources of Leica's sensors). If this is a sensor that hits the market behind the times, that's a significant disadvantage.
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 01:48:13 pm »

I think Sigma will launch their DSLR line of lenses for L mount, like they did with Sony FE.

I suspect they are already designing specific mirrorless lenses, like Tamron did for the Sony FE with their 28-75 mm, but those will probably take time. Now that all players (well... maybe Pentax surprises us with a mirrorless body... but I doubt it...) have shown their cards, it will be more easy for Sigma to design a lens that can work well with all the lens mount sizes... and take 1 design to several mounts, like they do in the DSLR world.

Telecaster

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2019, 04:29:06 pm »

My guess is the Panasonic sensor is an in-house design, likely made by Towerjazz. Who's to say how old it is? I'd rather wait & see than assume. At any rate we're IMO at the point where sensor differences at a given size and photosite density range may be measurable from one generation or manufacturer to the next but are barely if at all visible in real-world use. There's a point beyond which the focus on technical minutiae tends to devolve from useful into pedantic.

-Dave-
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Dan Wells

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2019, 11:00:50 pm »

IT may be in the same quality range as a Sony sensor, although non-BSI isn't a great omen (does Sony hold patents on BSI technology)? I only partially agree with Telecaster that sensors in the same size and density range tend to be comparable. That's certainly true of technologically similar sensors (the only visible difference between the Sony ~42MP sensor and the closely related Sony/Nikon ~46MP sensor has to do with ISO 64). You can get the Nikon version to give a bit more DR and a bit less noise, by using an ISO setting the Sony version doesn't really have (the expanded setting doesn't have the same effect). At the same ISO, they're as close to identical as doesn't matter. The upcoming Sony 60 MP sensor based on very similar technology will probably be an incremental improvement, but not more than that.

Where it may not be true is if the underlying technology is quite different. The EOS-5Ds sensor is not in the same class with the Sony and Sony/Nikon sensors, despite its identical size and similar/slightly higher pixel count. As a matter of fact, it's probably not as capable for many subjects as the preceding 36 MP Sony sensor. Canon's not always on the losing end, either - the original 1Ds sensor was a beauty for its day, far better than the Kodak 14 MP sensor of the same period above very low ISOs (the Kodak went down to ISO 6, and was very capable below ISO 80, but the Canon was far better in a more standard ISO range).

Since this sensor is not closely related to anything else (that we know of), we'll have to see. It could perform a little bit better than the Sonys, but not much - the Nikon version at ISO 64 is already pushing against the limits of 14-bit readout, with the Sony version not far behind. To perform much better, a 16-bit file becomes a necessity. It could be very comparable - or it could be notably, visually and measurably worse.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2019, 05:32:53 am »

Hi,

There can also be an issue with patents.

Best regards
Erik


Not really, I think they will try to do lenses for R and Z system, they are already doing lenses for the E system. I suppose their main problem is to reverse engineer the mounts, that can take time to have an stable version of the lens mount that is able to talk with the camera.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2019, 05:40:37 am »

Hi,

I think the S1 and S1r are good options for:

- Panasonic owners longing for 24x36 mm sensor.
- EVF buyers looking for a larger physical size camera.

Both Canon and Sigma are new arrivals in the EVF market. So it is a new market. Panasonic has DSLR market share to protect, so they can go all the way.

Having access to lenses from Leica, Sigma and of their own covers a lot of ground.

Potentially, I would say that the Panasonic seems to very attractive. That is not saying I would ditch my existing equipment. But it could very well be that I could consider the Pana offerings most attractive on the EVF market.

Best regards
Erik




   The full specs are out for the new Panasonics (well, other than video data rate, and, if that's REALLY high, "videographers"  could be the answer to the title question). Like the E-M1x, I'm having trouble seeing who this one appeals to. In some ways, it's similar to Nikon's launch - a capable, but unsurprising 24 MP camera and a pixel monster.

There are two differences from Nikon's launch, though (both of which seem to go against its success). The first is that there is neither a lens roadmap nor a significant existing system (ignoring the ~6 worldwide owners of the Leica SL, for whom these bodies are certainly worthwhile upgrades).

Yes, the L-mount offers first-party adapters for Leica M and R mount lenses, but both of those are easily adapted to any mirrorless camera on the market (and, in the case of R, even some DSLRs). By contrast, Nikon's offerings fit into the whole Nikon system (flashes, batteries and other accessories are shared with Nikon DSLRs), and the trouble-free first-party adapter brings access to many million Nikon F mount lenses, which are much harder to adapt to other mirrorless systems than Leica M and R lenses.

The other difference is that this is not a compact offering. It's the largest and heaviest mirrorless on the market, other than the E-M1x (whose market I also question), and the medium-format Fuji GFX50S (20 grams heavier, with the viewfinder). The other medium-format options are lighter! It's the size and weight of an EOS 5D mkIV.

Of the three initial lenses, the 24-105 is reasonably sized (a little heavier than the equivalent Sony, exactly the same as the Canon DSLR lens, and a tiny bit lighter than the Canon R lens). The 70-200 is heavier than Canon and Nikon equivalent DSLR lenses or the Sony mirrorless lens, and the 50mm f1.4 is the weight of the massive 55mm Otus and substantially heavier than the (already huge) Sigma Art 50mm f1.4! The only remainingquestion is whether that 50 will manage to be heavier than the forthcoming NOCT-Nikkor, which is more than a stop faster (the Panasonic lens is substantially heavier than the f0.95 Noctilux)? Note that Nikon also makes a reasonably sized and priced 50mm for the Z mount...

Unless you own a Leica SL, why would you buy this over Sony? Nikon? Canon? Fuji medium format? If you choose Sony, not only are there are much lighter bodies with very similar features to both Panasonics for hundreds less, there's a full system of lenses and accessories. If you pick Nikon, there are very similar, but much lighter, ergonomically excellent bodies with a small but growing line of excellent, lightweight lenses - and access to the whole F-mount lineup. All other accessories are shared with Nikon DSLRs. Pick Canon if you think the lenses we're seeing point the way to interesting bodies and more interesting lenses, or if you have Canon DSLR lenses... Fuji medium format offers the best image quality now and a clear road to 100 MP, 16-bit image quality later - and the entry price isn't much more than the S1r.

Yes, I chose something else (Nikon Z and Fuji APS-C), and I knew roughly what the Panasonic would be like when I bought the Z7. What puzzles me, though, is that I can't figure out why anyone other than a Leica SL owner would choose Panasonic over other options.

If you prefer Sony to Nikon, that makes rational sense (more native lenses, for one) - I can see it easily even though I chose Nikon. A Canon preference is either a statement of optimism about unfulfilled potential OR an addition of mirrorless to a Canon system - either of which makes sense. Fuji (or Hasselblad) medium format makes sense if ultimate image quality matters more than bulky lenses...

The others all have their niche - and this holds if you include Fuji APS-C  and Micro 43. Fuji has the best darned APS-C system out there, with great, relatively compact lenses and a lot of the performance of 24 MP FF. Micro 43  actually fits in three separate places. The smallest Micro 43 bodies and lenses are much smaller than anything with a bigger sensor (although they have significant compromises). The Panasonics offer class-leading video features, and the O-MD line offers performance for sports photographers for far less money and weight than you can get it elsewhere.

Whee does heavy, bulky, expensive Panasonic FF fit?
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Erik Kaffehr
 

davidgp

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Re: Panasonic S1 and S1r forthcoming - who's it for?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2019, 06:13:23 am »

Hi,

There can also be an issue with patents.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, it could... in the past they have done it for EF and F mount, but not sure if the patent was already expired or had some years so Canon or Nikon couldn't say no if Sigma or Tamron wanted to use it.
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