Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 10   Go Down

Author Topic: M8 review  (Read 284315 times)

Pete JF

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 291
M8 review
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2006, 11:22:04 pm »

Quote
So, Ray I'm just guessing that an M8 won't be on your Christmas wish list?     (BTW, Mr. Winogrand hasn't used anything for over 20 years.)

Magnum photographer Constantine Manos gives us a tantalizing peek at an M8's output on his "American Color" essay.

Different subject, Ray.   How do you feel about Patek Philippe wristwatches?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Wow Ken, Thanks for the link to Manos', American Color work. That was an incredible group of images.

Were those done with an M8? I heard him mention getting some Kodachrome after a long bw creative lapse/depression and seeing some promising things after shooting for a few days.

I didn't delve to deeply into any of the text or narration on what he shot with...i was pretty much blown away by the work itself. I don't think it really matters whether he used film or digital, not a bit.
Logged

Ken Tanaka

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 134
    • http://www.KenTanaka.com
M8 review
« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2006, 12:58:00 am »

Quote
Wow Ken, Thanks for the link to Manos', American Color work. That was an incredible group of images.

Were those done with an M8? I heard him mention getting some Kodachrome after a long bw creative lapse/depression and seeing some promising things after shooting for a few days.

I didn't delve to deeply into any of the text or narration on what he shot with...i was pretty much blown away by the work itself. I don't think it really matters whether he used film or digital, not a bit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

He's quite a photographer, part of a generation (now in their 70's) that really paved a visual path that's still heavily trafficked today.

I think that the only M8 images were those featured in the M8 section.

I think that two additional observations are worth noting. I have had, and continue to have, the good fortune to meet and/or hear quite a few of Mr. Manos' contemporaries speak.  While they each have developed skills with, and affinities for, certain types of cameras (mostly film, the common medium of their day) most seem quite open to trying new technologies such as digital cameras.  The hurdle most commonly reported is the computer. Relatively few have had, or have made, the ambition to embrace the computer as a photo development tool and divest such duties to young panting assistants.  I do, however, think that the older documentary photographers who have used a rangefinder heavily will be quite interested in the M8.  None that I've met have stopped shooting and seem to have no intentions of doing so.

A second point worth noting, related to so much of the earlier discussions, is that the Leica-style rangefinder's strength lies in close, intimate photography.  While you can certainly shoot a landscape with an M it really shines when shooting human scenes at close range under existing light.  Its small size and nearly silent shutter impose a far less intimidating presence than even the smallest slr.  Watching a truly skilled M photographer shoot is mesmerizing.  The lens is often zone focused and the camera only comes to the eye for a second or two, if at all, to establish composition.  Close-range intimate photography of strangers is something that very few amateur photographers are comfortable doing.  Most prefer to remain unseen 100' away, hence the large market for long-range zoom lenses.  

So the point I'm leading to is that those who cannot imagine the value of a Leica M camera are probably not doing the type of intimate human work for which it's so well suited.
Logged
- Ken Tanaka -
 www.KenTanaka.com

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2006, 06:14:23 am »

Quote
A second point worth noting, related to so much of the earlier discussions, is that the Leica-style rangefinder's strength lies in close, intimate photography.  While you can certainly shoot a landscape with an M it really shines when shooting human scenes at close range under existing light.  Its small size and nearly silent shutter impose a far less intimidating presence than even the smallest slr.  Watching a truly skilled M photographer shoot is mesmerizing.  The lens is often zone focused and the camera only comes to the eye for a second or two, if at all, to establish composition.  Close-range intimate photography of strangers is something that very few amateur photographers are comfortable doing.  Most prefer to remain unseen 100' away, hence the large market for long-range zoom lenses. 

So the point I'm leading to is that those who cannot imagine the value of a Leica M camera are probably not doing the type of intimate human work for which it's so well suited.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now that's the sort of sensible comment I appreciate, Ken   . The mystique mumbo jumbo doesn't work on me. A camera is just a tool and any competent photographer should always try to use the best tool for the job. If a photographer finds that a Leica rangefinder camera really is a better tool for capturing close-range, intimate shots, then that's the reason for getting one. I imagine that this would have been one of the reasons Henri Cartier-Bresson had for choosing the Leica.

Any small, lightweight, unobtrusive, silent camera would be better for such work provided it is of sufficient quality. However, I get the impression that some posters in this thread are thinking of switching to the M8 for use as a general purpose camera, but maybe I misunderstood them. Perhaps they are really saying that they are now more interested in street photography and need a Leica for this purpose.

Here are a few pros and cons I found on dpreview:

Quote
Fewer moving parts (no mirror or diaphragm) means slower shutter speeds possible (-2 EV). More compact, discrete and quieter than an SLR. Shorter shutter lag Lenses are considerably smaller than an equivalent SLR lens. No auto-focus makes them less suitable for action shots (or at least doing so requires a lot more skill). Many users claim rangefinder focusing is faster than using a focusing screen Rangefinder.
You are not looking through the lens itself and do not have a focusing screen hence it is more difficult to get a sense of depth-of-field.
Framelines indicate the field of view of different lenses.
Because there is no mirror you have no mirror black-out.
Brighter than any SLR viewfinder, and not affected by lens maximum aperture
Not as accurate as an SLR viewfinder, especially with longer lenses (or close subjects)
Longer minimum focus distances compared to an SLR. Virtually no telephoto lenses beyond 135mm. Very wide angle or telephoto lenses require an accessory viewfinder, meaning focus and framing are separated.

I should add to that the long start-up time from off, mentioned in Michael's review, which could cause one to miss a few of those intimate shots.

Your right, the M8 will not be on my Christmas wish list. Perhaps that's because I don't consider my talent as a street photographer so great that a Leica would make much difference. I'm afraid I have not developed to that stratospheric level of outgrowing the capabilities of my current 5D, 20D and lenses. The 20D with a choice of 10-22 zoom and 50/1.8 prime seems a pretty light and compact combination to me when such qualities are required.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2006, 06:38:52 am »

Quote
Different subject, Ray.   How do you feel about Patek Philippe wristwatches?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They're items of jewelery with a built-in time piece, aren't they? I don't wear jewelery   . My wristwatch runs off a solar rechargeable battery, cost about $40, tells me the time and date in big numerals and should last for many years without maintenance.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 12:16:01 pm by Ray »
Logged

alainbriot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 796
  • http://www.beautiful-landscape.com
    • http://www.beautiful-landscape.com
M8 review
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2006, 10:01:24 am »

Quote
You write this in the past tense,Alain.  Have you moved out of 4x5?
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I use the 4x5 regularly, in fact I carry two camera systems on all my outings: 4x5 and 1DsMk2.  As far as the M7 and Hasselblad C, I stopped using them about 2-3 years ago.  

The reason I wrote in the past tense is that 4x5 film will last only until an adequate digital solution is available, something that may not be much further down the road if the new system introduced by Seitz on their digital panoramic camera becomes available for 4x5.  We'll then have scanning back exposure times comparable to film, solving the lengthy exposure problem inherent to currently-available digital scanning backs.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 10:59:24 am by alainbriot »
Logged
Alain Briot
Author of Mastering Landscape Photography
http://www.beautiful-landscape.com

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
M8 review
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2006, 12:21:06 pm »

Quote
Well, for one thing, if the battery goes dead, you are dead in the water unless you have a spare battery. Also, get it wet and you might just have a short and again you are dead in the water. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So you are abandoning your previous arguments about manual control, and making completely new ones. I should not follow you down that path, but here are two obvious points
- the Leica M8 is digital, and so is as completely dependent on its battery as any other digital camera, and as subject to water induced shorts. (Maybe more so that some, since I believe the M8 does not have the environmental seals (O-rings etc.) of some cameras, like my E-1.)
- I do carry one or several spare batteries, which take up far less room that the spare film that I used to have to carry.
Logged

Gary Ferguson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
    • http://
M8 review
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2006, 01:36:24 pm »

Quote
- the Leica M8 is ... as subject to water induced shorts. (Maybe more so that some, since I believe the M8 does not have the environmental seals (O-rings etc.) of some cameras, like my E-1.)

This was one of the main criticisms of Sean Reid's M8 review, the instruction manual apparently says "do not expose the M8 to moisture or rain". It's not stopped me ordering one, but it'll be my first and last Leica digital if this warning turns out to be practical reality rather than over cautious legalese.
Logged

mscottwood

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
M8 review
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2006, 11:24:59 am »

Michael's review of the M8 was excellent. About 3 years ago, I got rid of all film cameras (Hasselblad V Series, Contax 645, Linhof Master Technica, Leica M8/9 etc) but perhaps for sentimental reasons I couldn't bear to part with my M7 and 10 of its lenses. Somehow, I put credence into the rumours than Leica would develop an M digital camera. And now, thanks to new management and capital, Leica has finally been able to deliver with the M8. I will be taking delivery of mine in 2 days & can't wait. My only problem is that I am a landscape photographer specializing in large prints (20 x 24 is my smallest) and it will be interesting to see how an up-ressed print of this size from an M8 compares with a similar one produced by my H2 (or H3) Hassy coupled with my PhaseOne P45 39mp back or even, for that matter, with a similar print from my 1DSMKII.
Logged

Quentin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1222
    • Quentin on Facebook
M8 review
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2006, 12:15:41 pm »

I'm just finishing a holiday in Egypt where the M8 would have been a great choice in place of my dslr options.  I'd buy one.  Probably  

Quentin
Logged
Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrato

David Mantripp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 826
    • :: snowhenge dot net ::
M8 review
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2006, 05:21:04 pm »

Quote
Also, get it wet and you might just have a short and again you are dead in the water. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, those high power batteries can be extremely dangerous.

Never, ever use your DSLR in the bathtub  
Logged
--
David Mantripp

macgyver

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 510
M8 review
« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2006, 09:01:10 pm »

Quote
Yes, those high power batteries can be extremely dangerous.

Never, ever use your DSLR in the bathtub 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Whoops.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
M8 review
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2006, 12:29:34 am »

Quote
A second point worth noting, related to so much of the earlier discussions, is that the Leica-style rangefinder's strength lies in close, intimate photography.  While you can certainly shoot a landscape with an M it really shines when shooting human scenes at close range under existing light.  Its small size and nearly silent shutter impose a far less intimidating presence than even the smallest slr.  Watching a truly skilled M photographer shoot is mesmerizing.  The lens is often zone focused and the camera only comes to the eye for a second or two, if at all, to establish composition.  Close-range intimate photography of strangers is something that very few amateur photographers are comfortable doing.  Most prefer to remain unseen 100' away, hence the large market for long-range zoom lenses. 

So the point I'm leading to is that those who cannot imagine the value of a Leica M camera are probably not doing the type of intimate human work for which it's so well suited.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am not sure to follow you Ken. In my experience, eye contact is what makes a close PJ photo work or not. If the subject accepts your presence as a photographer, he won't care about the camera you use, it can be a compact digital, and M8 or a D2x. Speed matters to catch a moment that works, but a D2x/30D can be just as fast as a M8 and will offer more DOF if there is no time to focus.

If discretion matters, then you probably don't want the subject to notice you and being close is probably not compatible with this in the first place.

The confusion comes from HCB's work that is seen as a unified entity while it is in fact composed of different types of images. He used a M6 for all, but the first street images he took were those that motivated his usage of the Mx. Those were images where he didn't want to be noticed by the subject. The M6 is the best camera to steal an image from close range, but there is no philosophical reason why one would always have to be close if the image is to be stolen.

Being close is IMHO motivated by the willingness to establish a relationship with the subject, and once this is done the tool doesn't matter much IMHO. A M8 would indeed be less intimidating than a 30D, but does it really matter?

I am not trying to run down the Mx (6,7 or 8) at all since I am convinced that they are very good cameras that can be very useful, but I just don't see the rationale you are proposing matching my experience shooting people in the street.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2006, 10:33:43 am »

Quote
Those who "get" Leica, understand this. Those who don't, will tend to lean towards cameras that offer more/faster/bigger.  Nothing wrong with that, but we are constantly seeking the "Holy Grail" of cameras/image qualtiy. This is why we are buying new cameras every 12-18 months.  The Leica M8 offers a chance to slow down the treadmill and get out and enjoy taking the pictures.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83274\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ever thought of becoming an advertising copywriter, Image66? Maybe you are already. Nothing wrong with that, mind you. People sometimes need a bit of persuasion to keep the economic treadmill turning.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2006, 10:57:04 am »

Quote
Let the camera decide focus and exposure (f/stop, shutter speed, or even both), zoom a few times, then auto bracket in leau of thinking destroy real learning and reinforce sloppy work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83412\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No! This comment shows how inexperienced you are with modern technology, Howard. You decide what the camera should focus on and the camera obeys. If it doesn't and focuses on something else, you've got a problem and it needs fixing. Buying a Leica is not necessarily the best solution.

Same with f stop and shutter speed. Only in fully automatic mode does the camera choose both. I'm surprised that Canon's latest DSLR models do not have a floating ISO which would allow one to set both shutter speed and aperture, leaving the camera to select the appropriate ISO.

Auto-bracketing of exposure is a useful safety precaution for the perfectionist who wants maximum exposure to the right without blowing highlights. Of course, anyone could strive to get just one perfect exposure, but some of us are also striving to capture the moment.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2006, 11:06:08 am »

Quote
I'll just say that a very long list of brilliant photographers use Leicas. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John,
Shouldn't that be... have used.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
M8 review
« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2006, 11:15:32 am »

Quote
I'm surprised that Canon's latest DSLR models do not have a floating ISO which would allow one to set both shutter speed and aperture, leaving the camera to select the appropriate ISO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83810\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Coming soon, I am sure, now that Nikon has added something like that in the minor upgrade of the D2X to D2Xs. Probably doable in a firmware upgrade, but to speculate, a new model in the 1Ds series is coming soon enough, and new features like that will come then.

Of course I 99% agree that is is nonsense to say that removing the option of AF and such can improve a camera, when automated cameras also have manual options.

My 1% reservation is that the viewfinders of AF cameras tend to be designed differently, making them a bit inferior for manual focus. For example, the viewfinder image in all modern Canons is distinctly smaller than used to be common in manual focus 35mm cameras --- even the humble Pentax K-1000, which also has focusing aids like split-image and microprism collar, rare in AF cameras. (If I were to become a "photographic reactionary", praising the superiority of the photographic past over modernistic evils, I would dote on my K-1000, not a rangefinder!)
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2006, 11:26:23 am »

Quote
Fits my experience too, esp. given my weakness for backlighting, although I use Av and a prayer regularly when I just don't have the 2 seconds it takes me to set up a shot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83537\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dale,
Let's recap this 2 second method you have of getting accurate, full exposure to the right. You have the meter in 'spot' mode and camera in manual mode. You search for the brightest part of the composition, perhaps a white cloud or the sun reflecting off a white wall. Having found that brightest spot, you then increase the exposure by 3 stops, eye glued to the viewfinder, watching closely the needle at the foot of the finder and doing a bit of mental arithmetic because the exposure indicator only moves +2 stops.

Having confidently acquired the right shutter speed, you then recompose the scene in the viewfinder and take the shot. You can do that in 2 seconds? Wow!  
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2006, 11:37:23 am »

Quote
Ray, maybe that would concern you, but do you really not comprehend that many photographers do not share this obsession with high ISO performance over other photographic concerns?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a good point, BJL. You know, I never realised that Canon have taken so much trouble involving so much expensive research to provide noise-free cameras for just me and a few other obsessed individuals   . That's very decent of them, don't you think?  
Logged

howiesmith

  • Guest
M8 review
« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2006, 11:49:44 am »

BJL, I am not completely up on autofocus, owning or considering none.  But how does the camera auto focus where I want it to focus, especially when there is nothing there to focus on?

Removing a previously available function might also make sense to a camara maker looking at their corporate big picture (bottom line).  Autofocus (and other features) surely adds cost to a camera.  If the added cost does not produce the desired company result, maybe it should be removed.  I think there are cases where a company quite making cameras altogether.

A camera maker needs to look at how a particular camera fits into their scheme of things.  A camera that does it all may not do that (while it may meet yours).  The company could be competing with itself - stealing sales from one camera for sales while adding to another.  Every company has limited resources and it could be wiser for their bottom line to eliminate a feature and use their resourses somewhere else.  Canon doesn't make 4x5 view camera lenses.  Not because they don't know how, but likely because it doesn't fit into their corporate scheme.

A don't know of a single camera that meets everyones requirements.  So pleasing everyone just is not possible.

I'm pretty sure the M8 is a great camera, just not for everyone.  I doubt Leica could support the manufacturing and sales of a camera that everyone bought.  Leica is a niche camera.  It doesn't try to be for everyone.  If you find you are not part of their intended market, don't shoot the camera maker.  Find another camera.  Threre are plenty.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 11:52:04 am by howiesmith »
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
M8 review
« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2006, 12:14:48 pm »

Quote
My 1% reservation is that the viewfinders of AF cameras tend to be designed differently, making them a bit inferior for manual focus. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

BJL,
That's my experience also. I certainly wouldn't argue that the M8 would not be easier to manually focus than a DSLR. However, I have my cameras set to one central focus point which seems accurate enough most of the time, even on flat 2-dimensional targets. Any misfocussing issues become immediately apparent, as they were when I bought my first EF-S 10-22mm lens for my 20D. I noticed immediately that the lens was consistently focussing slightly behind the subject, so returned it.

The floating ISO is a long overdue feature. Done properly, it should also allow auto-bracketing of DoF. After setting the aperture, shutter speed and ISO, the camera should then be able to take a couple more shots at, say, one stop up (automatically adjusting ISO to maintain the same EV) and one stop down.

Despite all the lengthy, detailed discussions on DoF, I have to confess that I don't use DoF calculators. I use the well and truly tested Australian method called "She'll be right."   If something is really close in the scene and I want everything reasonably sharp from that close object in the foreground to infinity (or close to infinity), I'll use f16 without any hesitation and focus on some point  further away than the closest object. But an extra couple of automated shots at, say, f11 and f22 could save time.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 10   Go Up