M8 review

[alainbriot]

If you are saying that fancy equipment is no substitute for talent, then I agree. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's my point.

[Ken Tanaka]

See Pete Myers' article entitled "Dude! Where's the Ansel Adams button?" 

http://www.outbackphoto.com/essays/essay017/essay.html

To expand on your theme, imagine the fun that could be had with a Robert Mapplethorpe button .
--
Daniel Bell
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Yup, Myers' article was sharply cute!

Look out, we're getting closer to automatic automatic each day.  Just today there is this news item:

"[a href=\"http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-7900-8665] Researchers demonstrate automatic photo keywording system[/url]"
"Researchers at Pennsylvania State University have developed a system that can analyse a photo's content, then automatically suggest keywords that describe it. Called Automatic Linguistic Indexing of Pictures-Real Time, or ALIPR, the technology is in the early stages of development."

[alainbriot]

Look out, we're getting closer to automatic automatic each day.  Just today there is this news item:

" Researchers demonstrate automatic photo keywording system"
"Researchers at Pennsylvania State University have developed a system that can analyse a photo's content, then automatically suggest keywords that describe it. Called Automatic Linguistic Indexing of Pictures-Real Time, or ALIPR, the technology is in the early stages of development."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83516\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the other hand this technology might make life easier when looking for a specific photograph in a catalog featuring tens of thousands of images.  I have often hoped that this would be available when I can't find an image.  My current digital catalog features roughly 75,000 images and I'm most likely low on the quantity scale when compared to stock photographers.

[Gabe]

On the other hand this technology might make life easier when looking for a specific photograph in a catalog featuring tens of thousands of images.  I have often hoped that this would be available when I can't find an image.  My current digital catalog features roughly 75,000 images and I'm most likely low on the quantity scale when compared to stock photographers.
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Certainly sounds like it would be great if it really works, but I'm still skeptical.. Keywording is an amazingly difficult task when it comes to images.

Google has come up with an amazingly brilliant and thought-provoking way to deal with this kind of problem though. Take a few minutes to play with this:

[a href=\"http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/]http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/[/url]

[Ken Tanaka]

I don't know why Gary Winogrand uses a Leica, but I could think of lots of reasons which would not necessarily have any bearing on why I should use a Leica. As mentioned earlier in the thread, a very good reason for using an M8 would be prior ownership of a number of expensive Leica lenses.
That's fine by me. There's often no accounting for taste. I'm just trying to find out what are the real and tangible benefits of a camera that seems deliberately devoid of so many automatic features which most of us find so useful.
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So, Ray I'm just guessing that an M8 won't be on your Christmas wish list?     (BTW, Mr. Winogrand hasn't used anything for over 20 years.)

Magnum photographer Constantine Manos gives us a tantalizing peek at an M8's output on his [a href=\"http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essays/color.aspx]"American Color"[/url] essay.

Different subject, Ray.   How do you feel about Patek Philippe wristwatches?

[John Camp]

Ray, I think my reply to your original "rich man's toy" post was too sincere. I'll just say that a very long list of brilliant photographers use Leicas. If you wish to believe that they use Leicas because they're rich...well, why should I argue?

JC

[howiesmith]

There's often no accounting for taste. I'm just trying to find out what are the real and tangible benefits of a camera that seems deliberately devoid of so many automatic features which most of us find so useful.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think you have aswered your own question.

[Robert Spoecker]

Keywording?

I am afraid keywording may be like artificial inteligence. About 30 or 40 years ago scientists were confident it was just around the corner but as they investigated it longer and longer they realized it was not nearly as easy as they thought. We can't even simulate the inteligence of an ameoba yet.

Keywording might be on the same track as artificial inteligence.    

Robert

[dlashier]

I don't really consider aperture or tv priority mode a bell or a whistle. Auto-focussing, auto-bracketing, auto-exposure and image stabilisation etc are the very sorts of features that enable one to take technically high quality photos that one might otherwise miss or cock up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

- Av and Tv - gave them a fair shot (6 months) and abandoned and went back to manual exposure because it works better.
- Auto Bracketing, no longer necessary after going back to manual and getting the exposure right the first time
- Auto Exposure - useless for me because you have to be constantly chimping and tweaking EC to correct for its sloppiness
- Auto Focus - this I use, but except for action shots where I find it indispensible, the main reason I use it is because the focus screens necessary for AF are useless for manual focusing.
- IS - I also find useful for handheld long tele but don't have it on my 70-200 and never felt the need. RF in general is not good for long tele anyway. and for shorter fl's a RF is so much easier to hold steady that I don't see the point.

- DL

[Dale_Cotton]

Frankly, I think the majority of serious photographers, whether amateur or pro, who've been in the game for more than a few years "get it" when it comes to the Leica M. Even though I've never handled - let alone used - an M, I get it that this is a camera that is exquisitely suited to a certain subset of photographers working in a certain subset of handheld photography. I enjoy reading posts from these folks, sharing vicariously in their excitement.

Perhaps some of us feel a little insecure, between the big price tag on this small camera and the long-standing mystique of the Leica lens. Here's a camera that some knowledgeable and experienced dudes are queuing up to shell out some very big bucks for. If you're concerned that you've missed the boat by investing in your present kit, surely the obvious thing to do is to wait until they're less scarce, then rent one for a day's shoot. (The rental clerk will probably ask you to leave your 1DSmkII and L glass and/or your first-born as a surety, so come prepared.)

The good Mr. Lashier wrote:

- Av and Tv - gave them a fair shot (6 months) and abandoned and went back to manual exposure because it works better.

Fits my experience too, esp. given my weakness for backlighting, although I use Av and a prayer regularly when I just don't have the 2 seconds it takes me to set up a shot.

In the long list of computer-in-camera aids so far compiled the one that's most important to me seems to have been missed. Nothing gives me greater comfort than knowing any blown highlights will make themselves obnoxiously known in glorious blinking black and white.

[Craig Arnold]

The thing that puts me off is simple really - I think it seems MUCH more expensive than earlier M cameras.

My reasoning is this; if I purchased an M7 I could expect it to last me the rest of my life, 20 years at least.

£2000/20 = £100 per year. So despite the initial outlay, it's actually not very expensive considering the quality of the product.

But how long can I expect the M8 to last? 5 years? That would seem to the most one can realistically hope for, it might be as little as 3. Electronic equipment simply doesn't have the same expected useful life as a mechanical body.

£3000/5 = £600 per year. That's a whole lot more expensive.

Now sure, I suppose one has to factor the cost of film into the equation, but even so - I find it rather off-putting. Say £10 per roll of film, that's only 50 rolls I suppose - maybe 1500 images per year. I'm sure everyone who owns an M8 will put a lot more images through it than that. But then factor in the cost of computers, software, etc.

And of course one needs at least one lens, most probably own 2 or 3. That could be another £4500.

It's a heck of a lot dearer than a 5D.

And maybe it is a Ferrari compared to a Lexus, but they both get you where you want to go in some style don't they?

[alainbriot]

The thing that puts me off is simple really - I think it seems MUCH more expensive than earlier M cameras. My reasoning is this; if I purchased an M7 I could expect it to last me the rest of my life, 20 years at least.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The same can be said for any film camera when compared to digital cameras.  The 1DsMk2 is more expensive than any previous Canon cameras.  Same with the Hasselblad H3 and all other top of the line digital cameras.    

I don't expect the digital cameras I currently have to serve me the rest of my life.  However, my Leica M7, Linhof 4x5, Hasselblad 503, etc. could have lasted forever with proper care.

These two facts are part of the paradigm shift introduced by digital photography.

They are not specific to the Leica M8.

[BJL]

... here is a high tech camera, that should I own one, would require me to do what I still have to do with my Spotmatic, set the shutter speed, aperture and actually focus the lense by hand.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can and do all of that manual operation with everything from my Pentax K-1000 to my Canon Elan II (EOS-50?) to my Olympus E-1, which lately is always set in manual focus mode. (Yes, manual focus on Olympus E system lenses, despite the concerns of some about them using manual-focus-by-wire as opposed to manual-focus-by-mechanical-coupling.)


Unless one is extremely weak-willed, what is the advantage of a camera that requires one to do these things manually over one that allows it, while also offering options for automation too? (I can hit the E-1's AEL button to activate AF if the need suddenly arises.)

[Kenneth Sky]

One thing missing in Michael's review: the mitten test  
After all most photographers would use this camera in cold weather. How easy would it be to take off the bottom plate to change batteries or cards? In winter, it's not what side will be up in your mouth it will freeze to your lip  
On a serious note, the slow start-up time would require the camera to be on at all times for photojournalism. How much of a drain on the battery will that be?

[BJL]

I'd also be rather concerned with the less than stellar noise performance at high ISOs. ... ISO 3200 ... ISO 2500.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ray, maybe that would concern you, but do you really not comprehend that many photographers do not share this obsession with high ISO performance over other photographic concerns?

Or to put it another way, some photographers (like me) care as little about image quality at ISO2500 as some 5D users seem to care about the need to use telephoto focal lengths 40% to 70% longer than other DSLR's in order to get "as many pixels on the bird", losing AF when that requires using a TC with a 100-400f/4-5.6. Of course the M8 is not a "bird" lens either, but I think you know what I mean: not every expensive digital camera that does not fit your priorities is simply a "rich person's toy". (Or maybe it is just the preferred toy of a different group of rich men than the 5D?!)


P.S. The M8 VF magnification is 0.68x at all focal lengths, whereas the Canon 1D (with about the same sensor size) has magnification 0.72 @ 50mm, and proportional to focal length in SLR style.
So the breakeven point is 47mm: under 47mm (moderate tele to wide angle), the M8 VF image is bigger than the 1D VF image; over 47mm, the 1D VF image is bigger.

RF users seem to gravitate to wide angles, where the RF VF image is bigger than typical for SLR's. SLR's rule for most telephoto of course.

VF brightness is another issue: without the SLR's need to form a secondary image by scattering off ground glass, and unconstrained by the aperture limitations of the taking lens, RF VF images can be brighter.

P.P.S. With Leica's 35mm film RF's, standard VF magnification is 0.72, same as for Canon 35mm SLR's at 50mm, so the breakeven point is the 50mm "normal".

[BJL]

About the M8 and other high end cameras being "rich man's toys".

It might be that the majority of cameras costing several thousands of dollars are mainly used by professionals and the affluent, but for some context:


In my part of the world, plenty of modest to middle income blue collar guys own sea-going fishing boats that cost more than a Leica M8 and a bag of Leica lenses.


So if one person enjoys the pursuit of  good photos as much as another likes the pursuit of big fish, the cost of even very fine photographic gear is not only affordable to "rich men": it is more a matter of how much you care.

[John Camp]

Though I didn't say it earlier, I do think the 5D and the D200 and even small point and shoots like the Canon Pro1 are brilliant cameras capable of taking great shots. That's why I keep my Nikon, even though I'm getting an M8 and now shoot an R-D1. The Nikon is great for things that the M8 won't be good for. I have a small fishing boat and spend a lot of time on a river, and for that, I take the Nikon, because I want long lenses and weight doesn't matter because I don't have to carry them -- they just sit on the bottom of the boat in a waterproof case.

(Also, if I drop something over the side, I'd rather it be the Nikon. 8-) )

JC

[mtomalty]

I don't expect the digital cameras I currently have to serve me the rest of my life.  However, my Leica M7, Linhof 4x5, Hasselblad 503, etc. could have lasted forever with proper care.

You write this in the past tense,Alain.  Have you moved out of 4x5?

That point aside,I agree with your comment and would extend the same sentiment to
most upper tier digitsl products.
There's no reason that an M8,1DsMkllD200,or any digital back couldn't last 20 years as a perfectly
functioning capture device if it were not human nature in a consumer culture to want the
latest,greatest version of a product.

Definitely,there are advancements that might help someone stay competitive in a professional
environment but the fact remains that todays top digital products could endure a lot longer than
most of us allow.

Mark

[michael]

Kenneth,

The M8 works fine with gloves on.

As for removing the base plate, we'll remember, this isn't a film camera where the plate needs to be removed every 24-36 frames. With a 4GB card (which are now under $100) you get about 380 raw files, and the battery is good for about 400 frames. So the need to remove the base plate will happen at most once a day for most photographers

Michael

[Jay Kaplan]

Unless one is extremely weak-willed, what is the advantage of a camera that requires one to do these things manually over one that allows it, while also offering options for automation too? (I can hit the E-1's AEL button to activate AF if the need suddenly arises.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=83555\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, for one thing, if the battery goes dead, you are dead in the water unless you have a spare battery. Also, get it wet and you might just have a short and again you are dead in the water.  

I am not taking anything away from these all new fully electronic fully automated cameras, but there is a certain something about slowing down and adjusting all of the settings. The only thing electronic in my Spotmatic is the thru the lens meter, and if the battery is dead, I can still operate the camera.

Yeah, it is a film camera, but so what? There is just something about turning the focus ring on the lens and adjusting the aperture by hand. It is a mechanical thing and it feels good.