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Author Topic: The River Aare II - Artifacts  (Read 2402 times)

Ivophoto

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2019, 01:32:40 pm »

Russ, Ivo, you guys are freaking me out. Stop it.

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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2019, 06:07:57 pm »

I'd sure like to see a photo of that "third element."
I'll bet she was stunning.   :D
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John R

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2019, 10:28:19 am »

Sorry to hear that, John. But did anyone explain what a "competition grade image" is? I guess they'd have thrown out nearly all of Erwitt's, or HCB's or Frank's. They wouldn't even have considered Winogrand's stuff because he didn't keep his horizons "straight."
Russ, anything deemed good enough to enter in any competition should be free from glaring technical errors, according to most judges. Such as tilted horizons (unless deliberate), over/under exposure, etc. Why, because they are considered easily fixable in PP. Studio images are judged even more rigorously because the photographer is considered to be in control of his subjects and lighting. Beginners are given a break. Advanced and above are considered to know better. To be fair, the kind of work you reference is from a different era and from a genre not likely to be judged the same way. After all, most long time photographers in clubs are familiar with the work of the great photographers and would not downgrade their work for their so-called technical faults. The truth is, you don't see almost any "street" work in Camera Clubs. The category would have to be Urban or street for most people to want to enter such asn image. I suspect people don't like "street" unless it is extremely well done. OTOH, we see a lot of images similar to Keith's and Slobodan's, and lots of nature, architecture and portrait style images.

One good example would be arguments between members and judges about what is considered overexposed, or for that matter, underexposed. Tilted horizons in landscapes or architecture, that are deemed fixable and important to the image are downgraded in points. It is sometimes a fine line.

Just wanted you all to know, camera club people are not much different than LuLa members, especially if they have been around a while. I should have made my point differently. Just want to point out, digital imaging and PP, has had a great impact on how images are viewed and judged in today's photography. So I had to learn at least some PP and up my game to ensure my images are the best they can be. Never mind all the fake skies and other PP alterations, which I won't even go into.

JR

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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 11:00:38 am »

Hey, John,

I've heard rumors that some photographers even go so far as to deliberately jiggle the camera during an exposure.
Absolutely shocking!    :D

Eric
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RSL

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2019, 11:10:50 am »

Russ, anything deemed good enough to enter in any competition should be free from glaring technical errors, according to most judges. Such as tilted horizons (unless deliberate), over/under exposure, etc. Why, because they are considered easily fixable in PP. Studio images are judged even more rigorously because the photographer is considered to be in control of his subjects and lighting. Beginners are given a break. Advanced and above are considered to know better. To be fair, the kind of work you reference is from a different era and from a genre not likely to be judged the same way. After all, most long time photographers in clubs are familiar with the work of the great photographers and would not downgrade their work for their so-called technical faults. The truth is, you don't see almost any "street" work in Camera Clubs. The category would have to be Urban or street for most people to want to enter such asn image. I suspect people don't like "street" unless it is extremely well done. OTOH, we see a lot of images similar to Keith's and Slobodan's, and lots of nature, architecture and portrait style images.

One good example would be arguments between members and judges about what is considered overexposed, or for that matter, underexposed. Tilted horizons in landscapes or architecture, that are deemed fixable and important to the image are downgraded in points. It is sometimes a fine line.

Just wanted you all to know, camera club people are not much different than LuLa members, especially if they have been around a while. I should have made my point differently. Just want to point out, digital imaging and PP, has had a great impact on how images are viewed and judged in today's photography. So I had to learn at least some PP and up my game to ensure my images are the best they can be. Never mind all the fake skies and other PP alterations, which I won't even go into.

JR

Thanks, John. You explained quite eloquently why it doesn’t make sense to enter stuff in “camera club” exhibits or competitions. I keep remembering the art competition decades ago at the Colorado Springs Fine Art Center in which I entered a couple woodcuts. I didn’t expect to win any prizes, and of course I wasn’t disappointed to find I was right, but the best of show winner was three blank canvases set at different angles. Wow! Sensitive judges.

The main problem with any “art” competition is that the real value of art is in the message the work conveys to what I call the “seer.” (http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/TouchingTheSeer.html)  It doesn’t really matter from what “era” a work of art comes. It either has the power to touch the seer or it hasn’t. And the problem is that if you have, say, three judges in an art competition, one or more may have a seer incapable of being touched by art. Even if all three are sensitive enough to be touched by the work, chances are they’ll be touched in different ways. So in the end it comes down to judging on peripheral points such as whether or not the horizon is straight, consideration of directly observable technical things such as exposure, etc. Judges don’t like street because many people – both judges and observers – are incapable of grasping what really good street photography conveys.

Yes, if you’re shooting raw, which you should be, you always need postprocessing – sharpening and brightness control, but if you’ve handled your camera properly you need damn little postprocessing.

And, yes: “. . .camera club people are not much different than LuLa members. . .” You can say that again. And, yes: in camera club competitions you’ll see “. . .lots of nature, architecture and portrait style images.” Of course you will. That’s the easy stuff. Shooting people doing their thing naturally, without posing for the camera is harder, and sometimes even scary.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2019, 11:15:17 am »

...it doesn’t make sense to enter stuff in “camera club” exhibits or competitions...

Russ, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

RSL

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2019, 11:19:30 am »

Swish!   8)

Slobodan, I should have changed that to "juried shows or exhibitions." I'm about to put five prints into an art show in March, but it's not a juried show. We just show stuff. That's a bit different. John was talking about juried shows, and for juried shows I mean every word I wrote.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 11:22:32 am by RSL »
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rabanito

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2019, 01:02:41 pm »

Hey, John,

I've heard rumors that some photographers even go so far as to deliberately jiggle the camera during an exposure.
Absolutely shocking!    :D

Eric

+1
:D :D
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John R

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 01:55:38 pm »

Hey, John,

I've heard rumors that some photographers even go so far as to deliberately jiggle the camera during an exposure.
Absolutely shocking!    :D

Eric
Shocking indeed. But in my experience in camera clubs, impressionist and non-representational imagery, like "Street", have to be done very well, before it is well received by judges and members. My guess is the further you stray from the mainstays of camera clubs, ie., people, travel, architecture, landscape, nature, monochromatic (sometimes), etc, the more your images have to be very good to do well. One way to look at this, is, do I want to wade through thousands of so-called street images or impressionist images, or other arty images on the net just to see some good ones! Let's face it, most of the stuff on the net is quite bad. Street is the worst. So many bad images appearing extremely busy and chaotic, as if someone were shooting a machine gun, claiming they are good "street" photography.
 
JR
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RSL

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 02:13:32 pm »

Shocking indeed. But in my experience in camera clubs, impressionist and non-representational imagery, like "Street", have to be done very well, before it is well received by judges and members. My guess is the further you stray from the mainstays of camera clubs, ie., people, travel, architecture, landscape, nature, monochromatic (sometimes), etc, the more your images have to be very good to do well. One way to look at this, is, do I want to wade through thousands of so-called street images or impressionist images, or other arty images on the net just to see some good ones! Let's face it, most of the stuff on the net is quite bad. Street is the worst. So many bad images appearing extremely busy and chaotic, as if someone were shooting a machine gun, claiming they are good "street" photography.
 
JR

Exactly, John. The problem is that few people have a clue what street photography is all about. They think that if there are people in the picture, especially if there’s a street along with the people, they have a street photograph. Some of these people even edit books. Take, for instance, Jackie Higgins’s The World Atlas of Street Photography. As I wrote in my bibliography (http://www.pkinfo.com//Bib/Bib.html):

“Jackie Higgins has a strange idea of what street photography is all about, and though there are some good photographs in this book there are vanishingly few street photographs. Both Ms. Higgins and Max Kozloff, who wrote the foreword, have the idea that street photography is confined to urban areas and streets, an idea that won't hold up under examination. In this book we have pictures of streets, pictures of buildings, informal portraits, advertising pictures, pictures of signs, pictures of cities, pictures of rubble, pictures of junkyards… all misidentified as street photography. Which is not to say there aren't some very fine pictures in this book, even some very fine street photographs, but the book's title misses the mark completely.”

You often can see the same confusion in LuLa’s “Street Showcase.”
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2019, 08:30:37 pm »

On the LuLa Forum, in my opinion the most consistent presenter of good "Street" photos (of the classic spirit) in the last few months has to be Stamper ("Robert.")

Russ would give him competition if he lived near a city, but he now has to settle for local landscapey glimpses. His archives show a lot of excellent stuff, too.

-Eric
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RSL

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2019, 07:34:28 am »

I agree, Eric. Robert is by far the best street shooter on LuLa. Yes, he's in a place where the opportunity exists, but there's a lot more to it than that. He has a great eye, and he obviously understands HCB's maxim: "Photographing is nothing. Looking is everything."
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Rob C

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Re: The River Aare II - Artifacts
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2019, 02:05:10 pm »

I agree, Eric. Robert is by far the best street shooter on LuLa. Yes, he's in a place where the opportunity exists, but there's a lot more to it than that. He has a great eye, and he obviously understands HCB's maxim: "Photographing is nothing. Looking is everything."


Yes, he's always been good at it since I've been aware of him; as you say, much of it is because he knows what the thing is. That's always a pretty good start!

One of the first images of his I remember was shot in the Necropolis in Glasgow. Or so I remember the location as having been.

Can never beat eye and understanding.

Rob
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