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Author Topic: m4/3 sensor future  (Read 10726 times)

JaapD

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2019, 03:28:49 am »

Over the years we have seen a continuous improvements of image quality w.r.t sensor size. This means that smaller sensors, including micro 4/3, have become more and more useful.

I see roughly three playing fields:
1.   Good is good enough. I see this mainly with the Micro 4/3 and APSC formats. Keywords are portability, limited printing size, huge telelens opportunities.
2.   Good is never good enough. I see the medium format shine here, driven by the Fuji GFX family. Keywords are maximum pixel quantity.
3.   The in-between section of 35mm sensors. Here price vs performance is what counts.

The end is not in sight (new sensor developments ….) and I see a flourishing future for the smaller format cameras.


Regards,
Jaap.
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scooby70

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2019, 03:39:19 am »

When I sell a print, I have no idea where it will be hung...so I try err on the side of people are able to view up close.

My own prints hanging in my house have varying abilities to view up close. Some are restricted by furniture, but others are on walls where people can view up close and most do.

This notion of "proper viewing distance" just does not exist in the real world. Just go into any gallery and observe people viewing the prints.

I certainly take pictures intending to get a certain look and that look will only really be achievable at a certain viewing distance.

Maybe I'm the only one...
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mecrox

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2019, 06:49:33 am »

I certainly take pictures intending to get a certain look and that look will only really be achievable at a certain viewing distance.

Maybe I'm the only one...


When I went to a large photography expo a couple of months ago, I was surprised by the number of people doing a drive-by viewing of the images. They would walk past a few feet away and snap the image with their smartphone, move on and repeat with another one. I suspect the number of pixel-peeping types is very small these days. Far more folks don't appear to think something really exists until it is inside their phone and on Insta. Image quality is an irrelevance for these folks.


My interest is engagement, usually emotional. If the images engages me, it works. And if not, try another image. Everyone has their own individual viewing distance. And normally, for a reasonably sized print, it will be a few feet away. I'm sure that applies to the overwhelming majority of viewers. If the images turns out to be complete pants close up, well OK things are getting iffy. But how common is that? Again, I would guess another rarity. Besides, image resizing programs can give pretty good results these days if an enlargement is getting beyond say Photoshop's comfort zone.
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hogloff

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2019, 09:12:07 am »

I certainly take pictures intending to get a certain look and that look will only really be achievable at a certain viewing distance.

Maybe I'm the only one...

Depends on what the subject of your photos is. I take both documentary travel photos and landscape and yes with documentary photos, viewing the entire photo all at once gives you the most impact and these types of photos are rarely viewed up close.

However detailed landscape photos are a different story where the fine details of individual trees or rocks etc... In the photo provide a different view than the entire photo. I once visited a Mangelson gallery and there was this beautiful fall image of a meadow. If one looked from far away...the print was huge, one might have missed the bear laying down in the field. However coming in close and viewing the details within the print revealed a totally different feeling, allowing to see this bear as he lay resting in the sunny medow.

Bottom line some images are better viewed as a whole, others reveal a different perspective when viewing the details.
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LesPalenik

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2019, 09:32:45 pm »

However detailed landscape photos are a different story where the fine details of individual trees or rocks etc... In the photo provide a different view than the entire photo. I once visited a Mangelson gallery and there was this beautiful fall image of a meadow. If one looked from far away...the print was huge, one might have missed the bear laying down in the field. However coming in close and viewing the details within the print revealed a totally different feeling, allowing to see this bear as he lay resting in the sunny medow.

Bottom line some images are better viewed as a whole, others reveal a different perspective when viewing the details.

This is true especially when it comes to large detailed panoramas. In contrast to a well composed subject in a conventional format, where you can see everything with one glance, a large panoramic image can tell a complete story with different details in each part of the image.

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Kirk_C

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2019, 11:05:33 pm »

What is a "pro P&S." Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Oh but it's not.

Photojournalists, particularly in war zones and in countries that suppress news media make extensive use of "Pocket-able and sharp" cameras. They can be used much more covertly, produce images of outstanding quality for print and web use and are easily passed off as a 'tourist camera' at customs or a check point. And if you need to pull the card and toss the camera (to stay alive) an SD or micro SD card can be easily hidden when you're searched.


« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 07:45:12 pm by Kirk_C »
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John Camp

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2019, 11:31:13 am »

I once wrote a lengthy article for The Online Photographer about image size, which is implicitly also about viewing distance. I compared photographs to paintings. Photography, in the past, has been much constrained by processing limitations. Very large high-resolution images were possible, but quite difficult, and beyond the capabilities of even some famous photographers. That's changed with the digital revolution.

Here's the thing about paintings from the Renaissance onward, and before that, on-the-wall forms like fresco and mosaic: the painter (affluent ones, anyway) were free to choose the size in a way that photographers were not. Larger sizes only involved a bit of extra canvas or board and paint. In the TOP article, I actually went through a large art history survey and averaged out the sizes...I can't remember the details, because this was years ago, but if I remember correctly, the average size for wall-display paintings (and which would generally be famous paintings, since they were in an art history book) was three feet or so. Some paintings, originally intended for museums or palaces, were much larger; but those intended for private homes most often fell into the three-foot range. They were intended to be hung on walls, behind chairs and couches, and they needed to be large enough to be easily seen, but small enough not to be overwhelming in living-room spaces. (See Vermeer.) Because paintings and photographs for home display generally share some viewing characteristics, I think looking at paintings can be a guide for photographers interested in exactly how large their prints should be, if they wish to sell them. I have a dozen or so art photographs in my home, and the small ones are in a (reasonably wide) hallway and arranged like a gallery. You can stand far enough back to get the impact, and if you really want to pixel-peep, you can put your nose against them. Two other larger one, a flower shot by Mapplethorpe and Adams' Moonrise, are in larger rooms and isolated; you can't approach the Mapplethorpe because it's over a stairwell, but for that kind of shot, a six-foot viewing distance restriction is fine -- details aren't too important. For the Moonrise, you need to do both. The Moonrise is, I think, 16x20, and is about as small as I'd want to put in that viewing situation. Any smaller, and it would have to go on the hallway gallery to be well-displayed. I would suggest that people who want to sell their photos for any substantial price must choose the photos carefully, and then consider making them *at least* 24 inches in the longer dimension. For most modern in-home display purposes, with appropriate matting and frame, that would appear to be a substantial piece of art to the viewer, comparable to paintings.

I'd make the point that I'm not arguing that one art form is superior to another, but simply that viewing context (home vs. museum) is important. I think that old style 8x10 or 11x14 B&W prints take very carefully considered viewing spaces...or none at all, and should be placed in a portfolio for occasional viewing. As for Hogloff's argument that some pictures need both long views and close-up viewing, I think he is correct, but only for a certain kind of style. Even with landscapes, there are some that don't need or benefit from close inspection. But, he's correct, others do. The Hudson River-style painting posted by LesPalenik above is one that benefits from providing both, as do older paintings by artists like the first two Breugels...but that is an old and now somewhat unfashionable way of doing things. Maybe its coming back, and maybe not.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 03:05:03 pm by John Camp »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2019, 12:17:07 pm »

I read these discussions because I use m4/3s, but all the opinions expressed seem a bit odd to me. I read some of the postings from people who feel a need for high enough "resolution" to permit close viewing of large prints. Others need less than that. Others seem to be taking exhibition-quality work on smartphones. It's almost never mentioned that some work need not require high resolution to look good. Also, as an aside, I can't help but feel that the number of people to whom large prints is important might round to zero.

Anyway, none of the above uses excludes any of the others. Why do we seem to need to take sides based on sensor size? Presumably this topic has emerged because of the recent release of several "full size" mirrorless systems. Why should they affect m4/3s anymore than previous "full size" D-SLRs did (or did not)? It seems to me to be more likely the case that one or more of the "full size" manufacturers will topple because of all the competition within their sensor class.
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John Camp

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2019, 03:28:44 pm »

I read these discussions because I use m4/3s, but all the opinions expressed seem a bit odd to me. I read some of the postings from people who feel a need for high enough "resolution" to permit close viewing of large prints. Others need less than that. Others seem to be taking exhibition-quality work on smartphones. It's almost never mentioned that some work need not require high resolution to look good. Also, as an aside, I can't help but feel that the number of people to whom large prints is important might round to zero.

Anyway, none of the above uses excludes any of the others. Why do we seem to need to take sides based on sensor size? Presumably this topic has emerged because of the recent release of several "full size" mirrorless systems. Why should they affect m4/3s anymore than previous "full size" D-SLRs did (or did not)? It seems to me to be more likely the case that one or more of the "full size" manufacturers will topple because of all the competition within their sensor class.

I agree in part and disagree in part. Some of the question comes down to replicating visual experience. That is, in a journalistic situation of tumult and action, cell phone cameras might be as appropriate, even when printed large, as FF DSLRs. When you're looking at photos of a riot, say, high res photos give almost the impression of a play; they feel set up, or frozen in place, a tableau. Cell phone photos, printed large, are fuzzy and even blurred, which gives the emotional impact of motion, haste, fear, hurry. A black and white option can give yet another feel, of street, of gloom, rain. So you pick your weapon.

I don't think we take sides because of sensor size, EXCEPT when it involves our particular enthusiasm. LL started out as a fairly pure landscape forum, and landscape guys like detail and the ability to crop, so they tend to like medium format or FF and so that's what you see on this forum. They want all the information they can get, figuring they can get rid of it if they don't need it. Guys who shoot motorcycle racing need super fast focus and so may give up pixels in favor of focus speed, but still want FF because those tend to be the most "pro" cameras with the biggest batteries, etc. And so on. I grew up photographically doing journalism, and that's what I still like the best. I shoot m4/3 partly because I like the aspect ratio, and partly because I mostly shoot street or sort-of street, natural light shots, where the highest resolution isn't necessary. I once shot a series on drug dealers in LA, and I *really* didn't want to be carrying my D800 and a Nikon 70-200 while doing that. The small m4/3 bodies were perfect, and the lack of ultimate resolution wasn't any kind of handicap. So, if we argue here about sensor sizes, I think that's because of our personal backgrounds and needs, which often aren't even mentioned. And the bias here, being a landscape-heavy forum, is toward high-res machines.
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Telecaster

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2019, 03:31:23 pm »

This notion of "proper viewing distance" just does not exist in the real world. Just go into any gallery and observe people viewing the prints.

As I've mentioned before, I deal with this by keeping print sizes down to the point where "getting closer" doesn't reveal anything I don't want seen. Keep in mind I'm mostly not photographing landscapes with deep DOF, don't place prints in galleries and have no intention of ever doing so.

I have noticed recently, with 4K monitor/TV photo display, a tendency for some folks to put noses on glass. The part about this that most amuses me: there is detail in a 7–8mp downsampled file that can only be seen way up close on a ~50" 4K screen.

-Dave-
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faberryman

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2019, 07:33:56 pm »

LL started out as a fairly pure landscape forum, and landscape guys like detail and the ability to crop, so they tend to like medium format or FF and so that's what you see on this forum. They want all the information they can get, figuring they can get rid of it if they don't need it.
I am a landscape photographer and rarely crop. If you find yourself cropping routinely, either you are using the wrong lens or you need to spend more time framing.
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hogloff

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2019, 08:21:47 pm »

I am a landscape photographer and rarely crop. If you find yourself cropping routinely, either you are using the wrong lens or you need to spend more time framing.

Same here...very rare do I crop a landscape print. The beauty about landscapes is you usually have plenty of time to change the lens to the focal length you need, thus limiting the need to crop.
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Telecaster

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2019, 05:03:43 pm »

"Ability to crop" ≠ routine cropping.

-Dave-
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HSakols

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2019, 08:57:53 am »

I crop most of my u4/3 images to 8:10.  What's the problem????
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JaapD

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2019, 01:36:06 am »

I crop most of my u4/3 images to 8:10.  What's the problem????

I don't see the problem either. Much better starting position than cropping from 2:3 format. Cropping to a certain required aspect ratio seems a valid reason to me.

Regards,
Jaap.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 01:45:23 am by JaapD »
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Rob C

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Re: m4/3 sensor future
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2019, 09:57:48 am »

I'd agree with Hogloff - use it (the E-M series are great street cameras), but I'd be careful about big new purchases - wait to see how Panasonic plays out (do they go all FF, or keep up both lines), and does Olympus keep releasing cool quick, compact bodies?

In almost no case does it make sense to get rid of a camera you still like and use - its value as a tool generally exceeds its market value...

Too true!

That's why I still keep my D200.

Rob

BJL

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m4/3 sensor future — Panasonic is not leaving 4/3" format
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2019, 08:06:24 pm »

...  wait to see how Panasonic plays out (do they go all FF, or keep up both lines) ...
I think we can put that one to bed now: it is very clear that Panasonic is adding a second, larger format product line that offers very different trade-offs of performance, cost, and size for different use cases and different budgets—just as Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony, Fujifilm and even Leica are doing. The main evidence is in the high pricing of Panasonic's L-mount bodies and lenses, along with the far smaller size (revenues and unit sales) of the 36x24mm format compared to the smaller mainstream ILC formats and some (old-fashioned and naive?) degree of trust in Panasonic's repeated statements to that effect.
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