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Author Topic: C1 12 gradient issue  (Read 729 times)

Wayne Fox

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C1 12 gradient issue
« on: December 17, 2018, 08:56:53 PM »

I havenít used gradients in C1 much (and in fact the LR graduated filter tool and itís interface has kept me from using C1 quite often).  With C1 12 the tool is much improved, you can actually control it without having to try and draw it over and over until itís ďalmostĒ right.  I was working on an image and have about 4 adjustment layers, then added a gradient layer to the lower part of the image to lighten it up a little.  I then decided the image was a little magenta, but noticed when I selected the background layer then went to adjust the white balance globally, the part of the image affected by the gradient was not showing changes to the white balance.  IĒve never seen this before, not sure why it would do this, and in fact Iím not sure this is common place because I canít replicate it with a simple grey image.  Iíve attached two images, one how itís supposed to look, then one with the tint turned down to -50.  The entire image should be disgustingly green, but only the area above the gradient mask shows this global change. (and yes, Iíve made sure I had the background layer selected)

I managed to work around it by applying a slight white balance shift to the gradient layer as well, just wondering what Iím missing that it worked this way on this image.
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dchew

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 09:14:28 PM »

Hey Wayne,
When I first upgraded C1 I had similar selection problems with both gradient masks and normal brush masks. Now I canít remember the details, but I restarted the computer (MBP) and the problem went away.

I figured it was associated with upgrading and not restarting, but maybe it is a deeper issue. Regardless, it might be worth restarting and trying again.

Dave
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IanSeward

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2018, 06:23:00 AM »

I havenít used gradients in C1 much (and in fact the LR graduated filter tool and itís interface has kept me from using C1 quite often).  With C1 12 the tool is much improved, you can actually control it without having to try and draw it over and over until itís ďalmostĒ right.  I was working on an image and have about 4 adjustment layers, then added a gradient layer to the lower part of the image to lighten it up a little.  I then decided the image was a little magenta, but noticed when I selected the background layer then went to adjust the white balance globally, the part of the image affected by the gradient was not showing changes to the white balance.  IĒve never seen this before, not sure why it would do this, and in fact Iím not sure this is common place because I canít replicate it with a simple grey image.  Iíve attached two images, one how itís supposed to look, then one with the tint turned down to -50.  The entire image should be disgustingly green, but only the area above the gradient mask shows this global change. (and yes, Iíve made sure I had the background layer selected)

I managed to work around it by applying a slight white balance shift to the gradient layer as well, just wondering what Iím missing that it worked this way on this image.

Works for me on Win 10 - 1809.  Are you on a Mac?

Ian
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Wayne Fox

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2018, 11:58:45 AM »

no luck with restarting.  Yes, itís on a Mac, but the issue doesnít seem to be common. Iíve tried similar things on a few files and it seems to work fine.  will experiment a little more.  Perhaps just an anomaly and not worth figuring out.
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alan_b

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2018, 01:14:11 PM »

Is white balance mode set to ďoffĒ on your gradient layer?

(Sorry for the basic suggestion - Iíve been tripped up by that more than once!)
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Wayne Fox

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 05:29:32 PM »

Is white balance mode set to ďoffĒ on your gradient layer?

(Sorry for the basic suggestion - Iíve been tripped up by that more than once!)
No issues.  As I mentioned one reason I work in LR much more than C1 is the graduated filter tool vs C1 gradients which I felt were very poorly done because of the inability to correctly place a gradient with speed and ease.  So IĒm a noob at C1 gradients.

Thanks to your suggestion and little experimentation this turns out to be a design difference between LR and C1.  In LR, global adjustments are just that.  Lr really isnít working on a layer concept like C1.  so any global white balance adjustment affects everything on the image and any adjustment white balance affects the adjustment area, but global settings are still applied.

Now Iíve learned that C1 works differently, if you apply a white balance adjustment to a layer, that layer now has an independent white balance setting, and background adjustments apply only to areas not covered by the adjustment layer.  I guess this sort of makes sense if you think of it in stacked layers. However, it seems strange that this doesnít apply to other adjustments like exposure, saturation etc.  Any adjustments to the background for nearly everything else applies to the entire image.

Personally it seems odd to me that it works this way, where most adjustments are global regardless if there is the same adjustment in a layer, but for white balance once the layer has a tweak to the white balance then the global one ignores that area.  Maybe thereís a logical reason for it. I canít think of one.

Easy enough now that I know whatís going on, just have to calculate and make the same WB adjustment on both layer and background.
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Paul2660

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2018, 09:45:52 AM »

I believe this also applies to a layer drawn with the brush. You can select the WB of that layer and tweak it independently of that base image WB. I use this a lot in C1 for skies working the blues.

Paul C
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IanSeward

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2018, 12:33:12 PM »

No issues.  As I mentioned one reason I work in LR much more than C1 is the graduated filter tool vs C1 gradients which I felt were very poorly done because of the inability to correctly place a gradient with speed and ease.  So IĒm a noob at C1 gradients.

Thanks to your suggestion and little experimentation this turns out to be a design difference between LR and C1.  In LR, global adjustments are just that.  Lr really isnít working on a layer concept like C1.  so any global white balance adjustment affects everything on the image and any adjustment white balance affects the adjustment area, but global settings are still applied.

Now Iíve learned that C1 works differently, if you apply a white balance adjustment to a layer, that layer now has an independent white balance setting, and background adjustments apply only to areas not covered by the adjustment layer.  I guess this sort of makes sense if you think of it in stacked layers. However, it seems strange that this doesnít apply to other adjustments like exposure, saturation etc.  Any adjustments to the background for nearly everything else applies to the entire image.

Personally it seems odd to me that it works this way, where most adjustments are global regardless if there is the same adjustment in a layer, but for white balance once the layer has a tweak to the white balance then the global one ignores that area.  Maybe thereís a logical reason for it. I canít think of one.

Easy enough now that I know whatís going on, just have to calculate and make the same WB adjustment on both layer and background.

I am no seeing this behaviour.  If I adjust the white balance on an image all the way to the right, add a layer, apply a gradient mask and look at the white balance control it is set to the far right. Adjusting the white balance control does what is expected.

This is on Win 10 - 1809 C1Pro 12

Ian
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nemtom

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2018, 05:35:13 PM »

Now Iíve learned that C1 works differently, if you apply a white balance adjustment to a layer, that layer now has an independent white balance setting, and background adjustments apply only to areas not covered by the adjustment layer.  I guess this sort of makes sense if you think of it in stacked layers. However, it seems strange that this doesnít apply to other adjustments like exposure, saturation etc.  Any adjustments to the background for nearly everything else applies to the entire image.

Personally it seems odd to me that it works this way, where most adjustments are global regardless if there is the same adjustment in a layer, but for white balance once the layer has a tweak to the white balance then the global one ignores that area.  Maybe thereís a logical reason for it. I canít think of one.

The logical reason is that White balance parameters use absolute values while the mentioned others use relative values, hence they could be additively applied.
It would make sense to mimic this additive behavior by having connection between the White Balance parameters of the layers, so when for example the temperature of the background layer is increased by 1000 Kelvin, all the above layers increase their WB temperature by 1000K, but this is not how it works currently.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2018, 06:12:48 PM »

I am no seeing this behaviour.  If I adjust the white balance on an image all the way to the right, add a layer, apply a gradient mask and look at the white balance control it is set to the far right. Adjusting the white balance control does what is expected.

This is on Win 10 - 1809 C1Pro 12

Ian

start with an image.  Make a white balance change to the image.  add a gradient, make some adjustments and now make a white balance adjustment to the gradient.  Now select the background layer and go back and make an additional white balance change to the overall image ... which at this point will only affect the parts of the image not covered by the gradient.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 06:18:28 PM »

The logical reason is that White balance parameters use absolute values while the mentioned others use relative values, hence they could be additively applied.
It would make sense to mimic this additive behavior by having connection between the White Balance parameters of the layers, so when for example the temperature of the background layer is increased by 1000 Kelvin, all the above layers increase their WB temperature by 1000K, but this is not how it works currently.
Your explanation makes perfect sense, and I actually think your solution is how I expected it to work.  LR  doesnít actually put the same white balance tool in the adjustment section, and it applies a relative adjustment to the current overall white balance of the image as you described.

Just have to learn a different approach now that I understand what it is doing. Not that often I tweak the overall color balance after Iíve added a bunch of adjustments anyway.
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IanSeward

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2018, 04:29:10 AM »

start with an image.  Make a white balance change to the image.  add a gradient, make some adjustments and now make a white balance adjustment to the gradient.  Now select the background layer and go back and make an additional white balance change to the overall image ... which at this point will only affect the parts of the image not covered by the gradient.

Got you now.:-)

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Ian
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: C1 12 gradient issue
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2018, 09:42:52 PM »

The logical reason is that White balance parameters use absolute values while the mentioned others use relative values, hence they could be additively applied.
It would make sense to mimic this additive behavior by having connection between the White Balance parameters of the layers, so when for example the temperature of the background layer is increased by 1000 Kelvin, all the above layers increase their WB temperature by 1000K, but this is not how it works currently.

I believe this is indeed it.

Cheers,
Bernard
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