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Author Topic: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!  (Read 2897 times)

DavidPalermo

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Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« on: December 04, 2018, 02:44:51 pm »

I would like to be able to import a RAW file and have Lightroom NOT put any profile or preset to it.  I don't want any sharpening or curves or anything applied automatically. I'd like to do that myself.

Is there any way to not have Adobe put a profile to the image? I see a "curve - none" under the color preset list in the Develop module but in the Profile panel on the right there are many choices but none that indicate zero or even "minimum" profile type. They all do something. It'd be wonderful if there were a profile in the list that is the absolute minimal setting possible.

I realize that if everything was zeroed out I wouldn't be able to see the RAW data but do any of you know of to get it set at the very very absolute minimum so I can actually see what I am working with and then I can enhance everything to my liking on my own rather than have Adobe do it? I want a very very neutral starting point for my RAW landscapes with little or no modifications from Adobe or anyone else. Thank you!
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john beardsworth

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2018, 02:52:35 pm »

Not really, but Adobe Neutral is probably the flattest (ugliest IMO), most neutral treatment. You'd also need to zero out other adjustments like sharpening and NR. Then save as your own default - and be prepared to do more work than if you'd chosen another profile ;)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 02:57:00 pm »

Not really, but Adobe Neutral is probably the flattest (ugliest IMO), most neutral treatment. ....................... and be prepared to do more work than if you'd chosen another profile ;)

Flat and ugly doesn't matter because it's only a starting point. Whether it really causes you to do more work is a moot point, because the default settings are just that - not the last word. One often finds oneself undoing some of that stuff in order to redo what one wants. So I can relate to what David is looking for - building the image from the bottom up. Up to several years ago this was the conventional approach with Lr unless one created a preset that started the photo otherwise. I see it making sense.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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john beardsworth

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2018, 03:17:07 pm »

I can relate to it too, though maybe I feel Adobe Neutral goes too far in producing that starting point and would almost always mean more work than, say, Adobe Color. But AN does seem the closest to what David says he wants.

DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2018, 03:33:21 pm »

Exactly what Mark said. I am using this for landscape work and I want everything to be as close to the raw data as possible so I can determine what to change. I have created a preset using Adobe Neutral and I also turned sharpening to zero and I have a very flat looking file that HAS detail in the brightest whites and shadows which is perfect. I can now start adjusting it knowing I have that data. Thanks guys!
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digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2018, 03:39:28 pm »

Not really, but Adobe Neutral is probably the flattest (ugliest IMO), most neutral treatment. You'd also need to zero out other adjustments like sharpening and NR. Then save as your own default - and be prepared to do more work than if you'd chosen another profile ;)
Yup, and even then, the request isn't happening; there's really no way not to have LR do something under the hood to the image in terms of tone and even sharpening. No way not to have some camera profile affect the rendering. You can set to 'ugly' or zero everything out but it's not zero (scene referred). It's just (often) uglier visually than if you just setup a default rendering that is at least a good starting point for further rendering.
If you want something as close to raw as possible but sill minimally rendered, LR isn't for you.
Maybe look at what a product like RawDigger provides.
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Andrew Rodney
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DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 03:48:22 pm »

If I am not mistaken don't you have to have some kind of "interpreter" in order to even see the RAW data? Lightroom, Capture One etc... all have to render a RAW file in order to see it to begin with! Capture One has "Linear Response' I think it's called and it does a nice job too. I still have to zero the sharpening in both programs though.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2018, 03:50:31 pm »

Exactly what Mark said. I am using this for landscape work and I want everything to be as close to the raw data as possible so I can determine what to change. I have created a preset using Adobe Neutral and I also turned sharpening to zero and I have a very flat looking file that HAS detail in the brightest whites and shadows which is perfect. I can now start adjusting it knowing I have that data. Thanks guys!

It'll be interesting how long you feel happy with it. I believe Neutral is mainly designed for more extreme contrast scenes, rather than for general use, and it does seek to reveal detail in the whites and shadows. It might well prove suitable for your typical scenes, even if I do fear you're making work for yourself ;)

DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2018, 03:56:08 pm »

There are very good reasons to start from a flat, neutral file especially with landscape photographs. When a 3rd party applies what they think is a good starting point it can sacrifice hi light or shadow detail that I may want! also when sharpening by default is applied it's applied globally - not necessarily how I want to do it! It's not more work at all. It's a pleasure! It's like being in a dark-room with a perfect negative.  ; )
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digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2018, 03:58:59 pm »

There are very good reasons to start from a flat, neutral file especially with landscape photographs. When a 3rd party applies what they think is a good starting point it can sacrifice hi light or shadow detail that I may want! also when sharpening by default is applied it's applied globally - not necessarily how I want to do it! It's not more work at all. It's a pleasure! It's like being in a dark-room with a perfect negative.  ; )
You do realize you can have any desired rendering as a starting point you yourself produce as a default? It's not a 3rd party doing this, it's YOU. Obviously you'd do this on a group of representative images. But there's zero reason to accept any 'default' you didn't create as a starting point. Ideally less 'ugly' than necessary. As John correctly states, you don't have to make a lot more work for yourself. A custom .DCP profile would aid in all this too......
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Andrew Rodney
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Schewe

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2018, 05:00:28 pm »

I would like to be able to import a RAW file and have Lightroom NOT put any profile or preset to it.

You can't and in reality you don't want to...an actual linear raw file with zero color or gamma adjustments will look very dark (nearly black) and very green. So, ALL raw processing apps MUST apply a default color and gamma adjustment. ACR/LR does that by applying a DNG Profile (not to be confused with the new appearance profiles).

While you may not think so, Adobe RGB is the most technically accurate color/tone curve rendering of a raw file. Yes, it looks a bit adjusted but if you compare known colors such as on a ColorChecker, Adobe Standard will render those colors and tone patches more accurately than other profiles.

You may not "like" the rendering but that rendering is more accurate.

What you are looking for is a different starting point which by definition is less accurate but a more pleasing (flat) starting point that you then build up to your final result.

Hey, you are welcome to create any starting point you want to...just understand that ANY starting point is an arbitrary non-raw starting point and that all adjustments you choose to make are up to you. If having a more technically accurate starting point hinders your adjustment process, change it...just understand that what you are doing is just as arbitrary (and less technically accurate) than the default Adobe Standard profile will give you.
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faberryman

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2018, 05:05:04 pm »

It rarely matters where I start from. It all gets adjusted.

DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2018, 05:46:25 pm »

You can't and in reality you don't want to...an actual linear raw file with zero color or gamma adjustments will look very dark (nearly black) and very green. So, ALL raw processing apps MUST apply a default color and gamma adjustment. ACR/LR does that by applying a DNG Profile (not to be confused with the new appearance profiles).

While you may not think so, Adobe RGB is the most technically accurate color/tone curve rendering of a raw file. Yes, it looks a bit adjusted but if you compare known colors such as on a ColorChecker, Adobe Standard will render those colors and tone patches more accurately than other profiles.

You may not "like" the rendering but that rendering is more accurate.

What you are looking for is a different starting point which by definition is less accurate but a more pleasing (flat) starting point that you then build up to your final result.

Hey, you are welcome to create any starting point you want to...just understand that ANY starting point is an arbitrary non-raw starting point and that all adjustments you choose to make are up to you. If having a more technically accurate starting point hinders your adjustment process, change it...just understand that what you are doing is just as arbitrary (and less technically accurate) than the default Adobe Standard profile will give you.


I understand all that and mentioned that every program has to interpret that RAW file or it will be green and dark etc... as you mentioned... I just want the most un-adjusted RAW file I can get (in LightRoom and Capture One) as a starting point. 

I didn't know that Adobe RGB was the most color-accurate. The problem with it is that it blows some of the highlights out and that is not acceptable to me. I prefer Adobe Neutral as a starting point.  I can correct the subtle color differences.  Thanks!
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DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2018, 05:49:19 pm »

You do realize you can have any desired rendering as a starting point you yourself produce as a default? It's not a 3rd party doing this, it's YOU. Obviously you'd do this on a group of representative images. But there's zero reason to accept any 'default' you didn't create as a starting point. Ideally less 'ugly' than necessary. As John correctly states, you don't have to make a lot more work for yourself. A custom .DCP profile would aid in all this too......

Yes, I realize that. However it IS the program when set to default that starts with Adobe Color (or Adobe RGB) Capture One also has it's default way to render a RAW file. I don't want those because of the reasons I stated earlier. I want to see the MOST information - details in highlights and dark areas and start from there.

There are similar ways to get there...
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Denis de Gannes

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2018, 05:53:08 pm »

You can't and in reality you don't want to...an actual linear raw file with zero color or gamma adjustments will look very dark (nearly black) and very green. So, ALL raw processing apps MUST apply a default color and gamma adjustment. ACR/LR does that by applying a DNG Profile (not to be confused with the new appearance profiles).

While you may not think so, Adobe RGB is the most technically accurate color/tone curve rendering of a raw file. Yes, it looks a bit adjusted but if you compare known colors such as on a ColorChecker, Adobe Standard will render those colors and tone patches more accurately than other profiles.

You may not "like" the rendering but that rendering is more accurate.

What you are looking for is a different starting point which by definition is less accurate but a more pleasing (flat) starting point that you then build up to your final result.

Hey, you are welcome to create any starting point you want to...just understand that ANY starting point is an arbitrary non-raw starting point and that all adjustments you choose to make are up to you. If having a more technically accurate starting point hinders your adjustment process, change it...just understand that what you are doing is just as arbitrary (and less technically accurate) than the default Adobe Standard profile will give you.

Thanks for that post Jeff its spot on for users to understand the way they should process their raw files, and not be consumed with doubting the look produced by different raw processing applications in comparison to what is produced in camera by the manufacturers firmware and raw processing application.
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DavidPalermo

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2018, 06:07:52 pm »

I prefer Adobe Neutral because it doesn't seem to blow out highlights and retains more shadow detail compared with Adobe Standard (and Adobe Color)... attached is an example... I did a screen capture and Lightroom's magnification is at 3:1.  Sharpening is set to "0"  on both images.
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digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2018, 06:32:06 pm »

I prefer Adobe Neutral because it doesn't seem to blow out highlights and retains more shadow detail compared with Adobe Standard (and Adobe Color)... attached is an example... I did a screen capture and Lightroom's magnification is at 3:1.  Sharpening is set to "0"  on both images.
The only way to truly know if highlights are blown out is to examine a raw Histogram. That's why RawDigger is so useful.
I've been begging Adobe to allow a toggle of the Histogram to show us the raw data but it's fallen on deaf ears.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2018, 07:20:36 pm »

The only way to truly know if highlights are blown out is to examine a raw Histogram. That's why RawDigger is so useful.
I've been begging Adobe to allow a toggle of the Histogram to show us the raw data but it's fallen on deaf ears.

That's right and good you've been doing that even though they haven't responded. Maybe one of these days. There are all kinds of things that can be done to improve the Develop module in Lightroom but Adobe seems to have other priorities, developing glitzy features for cloud computing and mobile devices that probably have more marketing appeal.

But getting back to the technical issue, yes, I appreciate the comparison David posted because it shows how Neutral reveals more highlight information than one may be lead to believe exists just looking at Adobe Standard and without the benefit of Raw Digger, which is also a trip to another application. BUT, as long as ALL the captured data is preserved in the raw file whatever interpretative algorithm is used as the starting point, it's not difficult to pull the Highlights slider to the left and see it all come into full view - if it were not blown at capture time. I think it makes more sense to see all that by default, but just to say, nothing is lost whichever way one breaks into it - except a bit of time one way or another.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2018, 07:26:34 pm »

But getting back to the technical issue, yes, I appreciate the comparison David posted because it shows how Neutral reveals more highlight information than one may be lead to believe exists just looking at Adobe Standard and without the benefit of Raw Digger, which is also a trip to another application.
No, not really. There's a difference from the profiles as there would be a difference just altering the Highlight slider and making a preset. You can have an image without any highlights actually being blown and make them utterly blown out by altering the sliders. And the opposite. You can have two channels actually blown out and you can 'reconstruct' them from the one channel that isn't. By altering the PV or other sliders in the application. Which doesn't tell us anything about the actual highlights in the raw. A raw Histogram does. That's why we need it; to know the facts about our exposure and it's effect on the data itself, not the rendering of that data.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Profile and Presets - turning everything OFF!
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2018, 07:31:51 pm »

I know all that, why I agreed with your previous post on the usefulness of Raw Digger. All I'm saying is that if one suspects the starting "recipe" is blowing highlights, one can check for that by toning them down and seeing what happens. I'm not pretending it's a perfect substitute for seeing all the raw information.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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