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Author Topic: Capture One 12.0  (Read 14751 times)

john beardsworth

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2018, 01:22:29 pm »

Variants are no different to virtual copies, and are really not comparable to the History panel which has 3 or 4  functions. Sure, you can conceivably use a variant to simulate a Before / After comparison, but only by creating that variant ahead of needing it. The History panel makes Before/After comparison trivial and without cluttering up your workflow with unnecessary virtual copies.
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myotis

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2018, 01:25:03 pm »

As you say the option to use a variant based workflow is easy enough in LR too, but many of us find that the full history panel a really useful feature that works differently to cluttering up a library with many different variants. Especially so if you're just working with subtle adjustments that can't be seen on thumbnails.

Actually, I was suggesting it wasn't as easy in LR, or at least I haven't found it to be so (maybe I should revisit it), but, as in my earlier post I agree that if you are making lots rapid subtle adjustments then a history is much better than variants, but personally for things like that, I'm probably in Photoshop.  Having said that, I also often find the history irritating as I need to scroll back through dozens of minor changes trying to find the bigger change that I'm looking for

Also in my earlier post, my suggested workflow was to make comparative variants, view them together as large images in a multi view, and delete the variants that don't give you what you want. Clone the best variant as a snapshot, and then continue working on the new clone, so yes you still do end up with multiple variants, which can't be stacked !

Maybe the different approaches just suit different workflows. I tend to be fairly structured and like the variant approach.

Cheers,

Graham
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john beardsworth

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2018, 01:34:59 pm »

Maybe the different approaches just suit different workflows. I tend to be fairly structured and like the variant approach.

It's not really a matter of "different strokes..." You can be as "structured" and use the variant approach using LR's VCs. LR just has an extra feature, which makes the comparison workflow more flexible and enables more approaches.
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myotis

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2018, 02:38:49 pm »

It's not really a matter of "different strokes..." You can be as "structured" and use the variant approach using LR's VCs. LR just has an extra feature, which makes the comparison workflow more flexible and enables more approaches.

Trying to match the C1 variant workflow using virtual copies and snapshots in LR, I found clunky and unworkable, so I don't consider that to be a viable approach in LR, so the benefits of having a history are offset by the poorer implementation of a variant approach.

I have already said, a C1 variant approach is not a full replacement for history, just more useful than I think its given credit for, because its so easy to integrate into a C1 based workflow, and can substitute (together with layers) for many of the things that people include when they list why they need a history function. And therefore may not be a good reason to immediately reject considering Capture One, if there are some other aspects of the program might be valuable.

I have no problem at all with someone deciding that after due consideration their workflow really needs a History feature, but I would argue that for most people there are possibly more fundamental reasons to prefer LR over C1.



 





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IanSeward

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2018, 02:44:58 pm »

I use LR and C1. Never used the history in LR so donít miss it in C1. I think itís got a lot to do with a thought process.  I look at am image and decide if it needs something, more or less co trust for example. I do that as I go along. I never go back to a previous state. I simply adjust what needs adjusting.
I feel the same.  I used LR since V1 and, although I was used to the history in PS where it plays a vital function, I never found the history in LR of any use at all in a parametric editor.  It may have changed now but in LR it used to record "every" action.  Thus you eded up with a list of edits like:
Made brush smaller, made brush larger, increased opacity, decreased opacity, adjusted feather etc.  You had to sort through all of these "irrelevant" commands to find what you had actually altered.  If you are on a brush mask you often alter several parameters increase shadows, pull back highlights, increase exposure etc.  Simply more confusing than it was worth (for me) unlike in PS.

I look at a photo whether during a session or sometime later and if there is something I think needs changing then I change it - LR is a parametric editor.  Sky too bright?  Is there a pin there?  If no add a gradient etc.

However, if people find it helps them fine, but for me in C1 I can't see the problem particularly with the layer workflow that C1 is designed around.  Now if you are trying to impose a LR workflow on a different editor then that will cause issues.  The programs are different.
For global adjustments there aren't that many sliders compared to LR because C1 uses Levels and Curves as major tonal changes much like PS.  A click into the colour editor reveals colour changes with a list of the colour pickers shown which can be toggled on/off.

For local adjustments C1 is far better than LR because it uses layers.  This makes the organisation of local adjustments very transparent and it is easy to scroll through any layers and be able to see where you have applied changes and again toggle on/off the effect of the layer as well as obviously adjusting the opacity to increase or reduce the overall effect of the adjustments.

Want to adjust the photo to print?  There is no need to make a virtual copy as you would do in LR simply add a "print" layer and make the adjustments using the excellent soft proof options in C1, name the layer and you know it is for Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.  Want to work on the file later, simply toggle off the "print" layer and off you go:-)

With any software you have to use it as it was designed and if you "fight" that by trying to impose the work flow from another program problems.  If you are not using layers with C1 then you are effectively crippling your work flow.  Remember virtually all tools work on layers including levels and curves as well as the superb colour editor.  Phaseone went the layered work flow and fundamental use of levels and curves like PS.  LR was designed to be anything but PS:-)  This is why the crop function works the opposite way to PS and every other photo editor I know.  Nothing wrong with this it is just different.  The point I am making is that each program needs to be used in an optimal manner.  You don't have to use C1 in the way its designed but it will make a huge difference if you do.

Ian
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Rhossydd

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2018, 03:07:41 pm »

..... If you are not using layers with C1 then you are effectively crippling your work flow....
In the context of the lack of a history function; no one is suggesting not using layers, just that such a funtion might be a useful addition.
In the same way many LR users would like to see a layers option added to LR in the same way that CO utilises the concept.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2018, 03:18:53 pm »

Trying to match the C1 variant workflow using virtual copies and snapshots in LR, I found clunky and unworkable, so I don't consider that to be a viable approach in LR, so the benefits of having a history are offset by the poorer implementation of a variant approach.

Really? In what way do you think the implementation of VCs differs from Variants? I don't see where it does at all, and without the History panel a LR user would use VCs exactly as a C1 user uses Variants. The History panel is liked for a few reasons, and I am a little surprised C1 hasn't implemented History as part of the catalogue. Maybe it's more difficult because of the session legacy?
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myotis

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2018, 03:50:35 pm »

Really? In what way do you think the implementation of VCs differs from Variants? I don't see where it does at all, and without the History panel a LR user would use VCs exactly as a C1 user uses Variants. The History panel is liked for a few reasons, and I am a little surprised C1 hasn't implemented History as part of the catalogue. Maybe it's more difficult because of the session legacy?

I can't really remember the details, but there were subtle differences that made the LR experience very  stop and start compared to the more seamless C1 process, and I felt it interrupted my workflow.

But like you I am surprised they haven't implemented a history option, its certainly something that would be useful and requests for it crop up regularly. 

C1 has become a very different program over the last few years, from essentially an ACR alternative with an assumption every user would do their editing in Photoshop, to more obviously trying to compete with LR and even PS.

So, just as we have seen catalogues and an increasing range of editing tools added, I suspect a history panel has to be fairly high up the list of future features.

Cheers,
Graham
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2018, 02:29:29 am »

Updated to 12 on my desktop and laptop. It was so simple and quick that when I updated the laptop i stood with the computer balanced on top of my printer while I ran through the process. About as simple and fast an update as I have ever encountered.

As to the need for a history panel. Some users clearly like it so makes sense to add it if possible. I don't use it on LR and wouldn't on C1 either if it was available.   
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IanSeward

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2018, 06:45:37 am »

Really? In what way do you think the implementation of VCs differs from Variants? I don't see where it does at all, and without the History panel a LR user would use VCs exactly as a C1 user uses Variants. The History panel is liked for a few reasons, and I am a little surprised C1 hasn't implemented History as part of the catalogue. Maybe it's more difficult because of the session legacy?
Hi John
While I am very much of the "do whatever you want, it is all a personal choice" I have not seen any real use case for a history list in a parametric editor like C1 with layers capability.  You have a great deal of knowledge and experience with LR what are the use cases you see as important?  Would you still need a history if LR used layers instead of brushes?

Also does LR still record every action like increase brush size etc. or has it improved with CC? 

People have given examples like alternative crops but that is handled by layers or variants easier and better than scrolling through a history list.  Also you lose all edits after the history point is selected (unless it has changed in CC) whereas the advantage of a parametric editor is the fact that you change whatever you like and lose nothing.

I am not criticising anyone for using history just trying to understand how they fit in with a parametric editor with layers? I don't know how many other parametric raw converters use a history list? In PS it makes perfect sense but I never understood them in LR although I used LR from V1.

Ian

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john beardsworth

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2018, 08:33:43 am »

I gave three key ones earlier, Ian - restore a previous key stage like printing, to set the Before side in Before/After fine tuning, and Undo that works after reopening the app. LR does still record History in too-fine detail for my taste too, but I'm not sure it would be better to summarize multiple brush strokes or slider movements as single-line actions.

I don't really see layers as relevant to LR's History's uses. If LR or C1 had both, they'd be as broadly complementary as any other features, so I'd expect to use both. To me layers' real value is grouping related adjustments so you readily can see and fine tune them together - a bit like how Nik programs allow you to group control points. So I am probably seeing C1's layers as more analogous to Photoshop's than to anything in LR.

John
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2018, 09:09:15 am »

I gave three key ones earlier, Ian - restore a previous key stage like printing, to set the Before side in Before/After fine tuning, and Undo that works after reopening the app. LR does still record History in too-fine detail for my taste too, but I'm not sure it would be better to summarize multiple brush strokes or slider movements as single-line actions.

Hi John,

Most of that can be done with "Variants" in Capture One, together with the Layers functionality. Not exactly the same yet very similar.

Do note, Layers in C1 are more like Groups of layers in Photoshop, because a single adjustment layer can contain various different adjustments (e.g. Exposure+Curves+WhiteBalance) and the individual adjustments in a single layer can be temporarily reset to their default by an Alt/Option+mouseclick (thus leaving e.g. the +Curves+Whitebalance, but without Exposure adjustment, or Exposure+Whitebalance, without Curves).

So yes, it's more like Photoshop than LR in that respect.

Cheers,
Bart
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Rhossydd

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2018, 09:21:57 am »

Not exactly the same yet very similar.
No it's nothing like the history panel.
The history panel 'just happens automatically' it doesn't have to be used, doesn't have to take up any screen space. Having dozens of variants clutters up the catalogue and browsing experience, plus you have to plan to use the option, there's no going back to a previous state unless you bothered to record it.

Can we just agree that those of us that use this and see it's value think CO would benefit from it, but there really isn't any similar functionality in CO right now.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2018, 10:17:27 am »

Can we just agree that those of us that use this and see it's value think CO would benefit from it, but there really isn't any similar functionality in CO right now.

Sure, no problem with that. Just want to make sure that people understand that there are several ways of skinning the same cat, with a similar end result. It's just a workflow preference, and I've worked with LR since version 1.0 and never found a use for the history function then, and thus have never missed it in C1 either.

It has a lot to do with how one adjusts an image. I have a very clear goal and will work towards that end, no need to backtrack, my mind is already fixed on the final image. It's quite like this tutorial video (including the use of one layer, but he could have done the earlier adjustments on one or more separate layers as well with the ability to toggle them off/on as a group or individually). It's even similar to how I shoot. Before I get the camera out of the bag, I already see the image and composition in my mind, and when I get the camera out of the bag I already know which focal length to put on it, before mounting to the tripod.

Others may feel the need to experiment more, that's fine as well.

Cheers,
Bart
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john beardsworth

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2018, 10:58:35 am »

People really shouldn't be misled into imagining it is several ways to skin the cat - having History simply enables a range of extra possibilities which are inefficient/awkward with VCs/variants.
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IanSeward

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2018, 04:26:02 pm »

I gave three key ones earlier, Ian - restore a previous key stage like printing, to set the Before side in Before/After fine tuning, and Undo that works after reopening the app. LR does still record History in too-fine detail for my taste too, but I'm not sure it would be better to summarize multiple brush strokes or slider movements as single-line actions.

I don't really see layers as relevant to LR's History's uses. If LR or C1 had both, they'd be as broadly complementary as any other features, so I'd expect to use both. To me layers' real value is grouping related adjustments so you readily can see and fine tune them together - a bit like how Nik programs allow you to group control points. So I am probably seeing C1's layers as more analogous to Photoshop's than to anything in LR.

John
Thanks for taking the time to reply, there is no right or wrong just choice.  I never made any real use of history in LR and I wondered if I was overlooking any situations I had not considered. 

The print option you mention is I think done better in C1 because you can have a print layer built into the layer stack.  No need to search through a history list.  Fine tuning can again be tackled with layers toggling on/off.  As I have said before I see no need to undo an adjustment in a parametric editor which loses you all work after the step back just change the brightness / contrast or whatever that is bothering you.  If the change is in a local adjustment then that is in a layer and easily toggled on/off or opacity varied.

I think if people want a history layer it would help if they made a request via the PhaseOne support forum.  PhaseOne do listen to their customers, as much as any company listens :-)

Personally, from listening to the webinars and interviews with PhaseOne technical people on the Luminous Landscape video interviews where, in a video, you get a feel for the people and company I don't think history will come to C1Pro.  They have said that any new feature is debated long and hard before it makes the cut in an effort to avoid feature creep and bloat.  They have nailed their colours to the mast of a layered work flow which, if not eliminates the need for history, certainly minimises the "gain".  In the same way we will never see a "red eye" brush in C1Pro, it's only another local adjustment :-)

However, I have been wrong before and time will tell:-)

Ian
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john beardsworth

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2018, 04:44:36 am »

Ian, you're still not really getting - and maybe I'm not expressing clearly enough - that History is more about the chronological aspects of editing photos, not about grouping related adjustments. Let's take the print example. I don't print with C1 so am I right that you would have needed to have deliberately created a layer with print-related adjustments? You're seeing this in "grouping" terms, toggling on and off. But I am thinking about how one might have edited an image over time. Without my needing to do anything, History lets me go back to the image as it was whenever I printed it, each time being recorded. So it might be to the first time the image was printed, or the second time when it was printed with a slightly-different crop and brighter - the layers are adding up, while I'm not having to think. I can revisit the B&W treatment I tried last year, or to when I was warming the sky or lifting the shadows in the corner etc. History means I've no need to think ahead or do anything. It's not about toggling, it's an Undo on steroids.

John
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myotis

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2018, 06:01:39 am »

History lets me go back to the image as it was whenever I printed it, each time being recorded. So it might be to the first time the image was printed, or the second time when it was printed with a slightly-different crop and brighter - the layers are adding up, while I'm not having to think. I can revisit the B&W treatment I tried last year, or to when I was warming the sky or lifting the shadows in the corner etc. History means I've no need to think ahead or do anything. It's not about toggling, it's an Undo on steroids.

That is interesting John. You dismissed my suggestion that the value of History was related to workflow, but these are all examples where you seem to have reached a particular stage in the process e.g. printing, which I would never just rely on History for. Even if I was using it. I would want to feel these stages  were more easily accessible and not lost somewhere in the history.

So not knowing that a key stage has been specifically saved and easily found would stop me moving onto the next stage. Planning and thinking ahead is part of my workflow.  I export all final images as TIFFs, before printing or converting to JPEGs, so this is always a definitive step in my workflow

Where I find History very useful is in the short term, when for example using a 5% flow and slowly building up a change, and I want to quickly see if I have gone a couple of strokes too far. Or that sort of thing where I may want to go further back. 

This might explain why I am perfectly happy with a Variant/Layer approach as an alternative for "most" of the history functions, and I take comfort in it needing user intervention, as I feel in control and each variant or layer represents a discrete step. You appear to not see it as offering an alternative for "any" of the functions provided by History, because of the fundamental difference that History requires no user intervention.

I think I understand  your argument better now, as I had never imagined anyone relying on/using History the way you, and presumably others, are using it, and I can't argue against the no user intervention difference.

Cheers,

Graham

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IanSeward

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2018, 06:51:32 am »

Ian, you're still not really getting - and maybe I'm not expressing clearly enough - that History is more about the chronological aspects of editing photos, not about grouping related adjustments. Let's take the print example. I don't print with C1 so am I right that you would have needed to have deliberately created a layer with print-related adjustments? You're seeing this in "grouping" terms, toggling on and off. But I am thinking about how one might have edited an image over time. Without my needing to do anything, History lets me go back to the image as it was whenever I printed it, each time being recorded. So it might be to the first time the image was printed, or the second time when it was printed with a slightly-different crop and brighter - the layers are adding up, while I'm not having to think. I can revisit the B&W treatment I tried last year, or to when I was warming the sky or lifting the shadows in the corner etc. History means I've no need to think ahead or do anything. It's not about toggling, it's an Undo on steroids.

John

I am not quite getting it but that may be due to the little use I made in LR of the history function as it never seemed to fit with the non sequential editing flow used in a parametric editor, not helped by the fact that there were so many irrelevant steps being recorded like brush size that it was difficult to find where I was. :-)  Also although I used LR since V1 I have not used CC and I know there have been many improvements and changes.  It used to be that if I stepped back to an earlier point in the editing process by clicking on a history state then as soon as I touched a control I lost all of the edit steps after that point.  Is this different now in CC?

I don't print from C1Pro I use the excellent Soft Proof facility to prepare the print for use in whatever ICC print profile is appropriate using a layer, used to make a variant but now find the layer more convenient.  I then send the print to my old friend Qimage Pro (now Ultimate) which I have used for ever, well since the very early 2000's :-)

Ian

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture One 12.0
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2018, 07:39:25 am »

Iíve taught a few hundred individuals (mostly pros, some enthusiasts) Capture One over the last decade.

About a third really miss a History panel with before/after slider. About two thirds donít miss it at all, and would rarely or never use it even if it was added. Those two sides rarely understand each other.
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