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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 24959 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« on: November 12, 2018, 03:30:25 pm »

A few months ago Sony was the only game in town for FF mirrorless systems.

Today both Canon and Nikon have played their cards after years of careful consideration. This being those two companies’ most important move in the past 20 years and for 20+ years to come.

I personnally see in Nikon’s release a clear ambition to gain market share over competition while Canon is apparently doing more of the same “let’s invest the least we can and let our web marketing team do the job of using our brand name”.

Based on what we have seen so far, why would anyone decide on a long term investment in the Canon mirrorless platform when all that’s coming is most probably great lenses on sub-par bodies? The same thing we’ve had in the past 10 years.

Will those who have been waiting for something different year on year since the 1Ds continue to wait or finally call it a day and move to Sony for good?

Following a long stream of DSLRs, is it still not clear that Nikon, although it is a smaller company, delivers time and again superior cameras delivering higher value to their customers while Sony is on different course all together?

Why would anyone still believe in Canon enough today to decide to invest cash on the R system?

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Bernard

32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 03:46:24 pm »

1. Because photography, drawing with light, is still 90% the lens, and only 10% camera. (not considering the photographer and his/her vision).
2. Because Canon has a proven trackrecord of backing up their offerings with well established pro service.
3. Because designating Canon bodies as sub-par and accusing them of uninvesting is mere internuts hyperbole.

Yes, I would like a Z body with R lenses currently, but just because Canon sensors don't quite match the current top-of-the-line, doesn't mean they are bad sensors, and certainly doesn't mean the entire camera experience is therefore bad. Canon can and will make great cameras and hopefully they will also eventually churn out a sensor to match.
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faberryman

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 03:52:41 pm »

Canon users will, in large measure, remain Canon users. Nikon users will, in large measure, remain Nikon users. Brand loyalty counts for a lot. Not to mention current investment in lenses. Actual tech specs are way down the list except for a certain subset of photographers (you know who you are).  Witness the fact that people are actually buying the Canon EOS R. Newcomers will now have a broader choice. I think Panasonic will have a hard time penetrating the market.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:54:57 am by faberryman »
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BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 06:24:29 pm »

For some silly scorekeeping, the first relevant BCN survey of unit sales of 35mm format EVF cameras in Japan has the EOS R taking about 22.7%, Z7 about 10.4% for October 2018. Given the price gap, the Z6 should earn significantly more unit sales than the Z7 — I would guess about matching or exceeding the EOR R's share, so giving the first round to the Z system.
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/11/07/the-latest-full-frame-market-mirrorless-market-share-sony-67-canon-22-1-nikon-10-4.aspx/
(Please ignore all the silly comparisons to Sony, as if market share percentage decreasing means anything when they started at 100% and one is seeing pent-up demand from Canon/Nikon users.)

Beyond that, I would say that much depends on what Canon does next with bodies, if/when it adds IBIS, and how the different approaches to on-sensor PDAF compare as they mature. As a big fan if IBIS (and IBIS+ILIS), I see Nikon having an advantage that will persist at least for a while.
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Rado

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 06:59:57 pm »

I've recently handled the Canon R during an event and after spending about 10 minutes with it figuring out how to set it up the way I want it it etc I had a very nice camera in my hands. Autofocus was snappy (both control using touch to move AF points around and actual focus acquisition) and worked perfectly with EF lenses (including my Sigma primes). I was also able to test it in a studio-like setup with strobes - it worked equally well. This is going to be my next camera purchase when it comes down in price a bit, to replace my aging DSLR.

As for who is the winner - nobody. The camera market is shrinking so all manufacturers will feel the squeeze sooner or later. Customers are/will be asked to shell out more and more money for incremental improvements or even downgrades (e.g. focus by wire).
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Telecaster

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2018, 08:21:41 pm »

Bernard, your post reads like pure PR. "…most important move in the past 20 years…" Seriously?! How 'bout: "Oh shit, we're on the verge of having our arses handed to us in a hat! Do something! Now!"

I'm just kicking back & watching to see how many (if any) of the current players manage to survive the smartdevice:)

-Dave-
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2018, 08:56:21 pm »

Bernard, your post reads like pure PR. "…most important move in the past 20 years…" Seriously?! How 'bout: "Oh shit, we're on the verge of having our arses handed to us in a hat! Do something! Now!"

I think this is totally objective. The Z and the R are a matter of survival for the camera divisions at Canon and Nikon. This is totally obvious to me even if it may not be when considering they current daily business. Project yourself in 5 years and that will totally be the case.

This per say isn't saying anything about how well they delivered.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2018, 09:06:17 pm »

Canon users will, in large measure, remain Canon users. Nikon users will, in large measure, remain Nikon users. Brand loyalty counts for a lot. Not to mention current investment in lenses. Newcomers will now have a broader choice. I think Panasonic will have a hard time penetrating the market.

That's the part I have a hard time understanding these days.

A majority of FF DSLR Canon users choose Canon because the brand was once delivering the best solution for photographers. They aren't married with the brand.

Considering the pretty abysmal track record of Canon in terms of body performance (sensor, AF,... you name it) these past 10 years, isn't there a point being which you just give up?

I fail to see why the R changes that perception. I fail to see how it shows an inflection point that would give Canon users hope of better tomorrows.

Yes, the new lenses seem great, in particular the 50mm f1.2, but Z lenses will be amazing too and G Master lenses are no slouch either.

If you have to buy new lenses anyway, why not move to a brand that treats its customers with consistently superior cameras? That would be Sony and Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 01:07:30 am »


If you have to buy new lenses anyway, why not move to a brand that treats its customers with consistently superior cameras? That would be Sony and Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard

HahahahahahaHahaha HahahahahahaHahaha HahahahahahaHahaha

Don't know what you're drinking or smoking, but you had too much wasabi, my friend.

 ;D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 01:20:05 am »

HahahahahahaHahaha HahahahahahaHahaha HahahahahahaHahaha

Don't know what you're drinking or smoking, but you had too much wasabi, my friend.

You may not like the UI of Sony camera, but many do. And leaving the UI aside, their performance in terms of sensor, AF,... leaves the Canon R far far behind.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 01:58:26 am by BernardLanguillier »
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32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2018, 02:07:59 am »

You may not like to Sony camera UIs, but many do. And leaving the UI aside, their performance in terms of sensor, AF,... leaves the Canon R far far behind.

Cheers,
Bernard

I personally have no problem with the Sony ui and i currently use Sony because the connectivity to both mobile and desktop is simple and direct. But stating that Sony somehow treats its customers with consistent cameras because they finally delivered a reasonably performing cam in version 3, compared to Canon (and Nikon) doing so for several decades, is obviously delutional.

There is nothing consistent about the Sony system. In fact, as a system, it made me wonder if they will still be a player in 10 years time. Their only claim to fame currently is the rate of innovation implementation, and they'll soon find out that photographers don't have the kind of money to justify spending on a new body each and every time that Sony decides to move a button or add a megapixel.

The pro market demands consistency, and neither Sony's progress offers consistency, nor its entire system with Zeiss, Sony-Zeiss, G and GM lenses and the corresponding non-sensical pricing offer any consistency. And they have yet to show that they can offer pro services with any consistency.

Personally, from a business perspective i don't see why you'd even want to start in and dominate that dwindling market, but if it makes them happy to try, all the better for us.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2018, 02:34:58 am »

My point wasn't about the consistency of the system, but the way Sony and Nikon have been producing bodies that have all been great performers (better than Canon for sure) on what really matters, which is image quality and AF. OK, Sony may have needed some iterations to get there, but Nikon has been there for 10 years or so.

And we have seen consistent progress and a clear willingness to move forward at the fastest possible speed. Which I just don't see in Canon's releases. At least not for still photography.

Cheers,
Bernard

KLaban

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2018, 03:45:49 am »

...and the winner is...rustle of envelope...choice.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 03:56:23 am by KLaban »
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32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2018, 03:49:53 am »

That's because "consistent" and "moving forward at the fastest possible speed" are mutually exclusive. If you cater to pros, you are trying to build a durable system, even a single camerabody needs some kind of durability. These are not plastic 3d printed casings around the latest and greatest processor every 18 months.

I wonder what you think that marketsegment is expecting vs what you are expecting. Innovation is not a goal in itself, at least not for a pro photographer who needs a familiar and reliable tool for the job.

Decades of Olympics have been recorded with digital Canon gear without much problems, certainly not AF problems. For mirrorless, the C solution AF seems to be the most dependable so far. Eye AF? Nikon doesn't offer it yet either. It is far too early to tell which system is on a dead track (if at all) for a pro to make decisions on investing.

With Canon we can at least be sure that photography has been a profitable, dominating core business. That claim can not be made by either Sony or Nikon for different reasons. Let me stop my rant here, i'm starting to sound like a Canon fanboy...

I certainly hope Canon gets their sensor act together, so we'll finally get some imagequality that do their lenses justice in a ergonomically friendly and reliably durable package.

Then again, i'm no pro. WTF do i care.
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32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2018, 03:56:58 am »

No wait, i wasn't finished: batterylife

That's the one thing that may kill all the fun for C. Do they really need to drain a battery within 200 pics, just to produce such abominable imagequality? What happens if they ever introduce ibis? Only 100 pics per charge?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2018, 04:10:27 am »

...and the winner is...rustle of envelope...choice.

I wish that were true.

My dislike of Canon throughout these years results from exactly that... it has been a very long time since they have come up with a body I consider to be a credible choice relative to competition.

They hurt my consumerist self. How can a company so consistently not produce anything I want;D

Heck, pretty much every other manufacturer managed to come up with cameras that made me think at some point "it may make sense to get that one, it would deliver some value compared to what I already have".

And if Canon can't achieve that with the first iteration of their strategic next gen mirrorless platform... well... I am not optimistic.

Even if we agree that I am more easily bored than the average photographer...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 04:15:45 am by BernardLanguillier »
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KLaban

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2018, 06:39:55 am »

Choice is good, just imagine that the only choice was Canon.

;-)
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2018, 07:30:22 am »

I wish that were true.

My dislike of Canon throughout these years results from exactly that... it has been a very long time since they have come up with a body I consider to be a credible choice relative to competition.




Cheers,
Bernard

It seems that what you consider, and what the market considers, is miles apart. Frankly, why do you feel the need to regularly bash Canon and praise Nikon? Not everybody requires the  greatest Nikon DLSR or MILC camera ever built to take pics and make a living out of it.

Sometimes, quite often, I dare to propose, one of those many crappy Canon cameras will do fine, thank you very much...

PeterAit

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2018, 09:45:34 am »


You may not like the UI of Sony camera, but many do.


The best thing about the Sony UI is that once you have mastered it you have a real feeling of accomplishment  ;).
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gkroeger

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2018, 04:15:52 pm »

It seems awfully early in the first half to be picking a winner.

As for Sony, they are holding up well with a year old model. None of the newcomers are clearly better overall, despite each having some advantages. Sony still has Zeiss and other third party optics in their corner because they opened up the lens mount. Sony have also shown that they can produce some great lenses with recent G and GM releases. We know they have a new, higher resolution, EVF coming, and no-doubt some significant sensor improvements. Will they improve weather sealing and ergonomics?  Seems likely. Will they straighten out the menus... only time will tell.

Nikon has a great first release, superb EVF, with only two soft points. They are a bit behind in auto-focus, but only for certain applications. Their big Achilles heel is native lenses. If one has a stable of F-mount Nikkors, no problem. But for someone like me, with no large stable of glass, I am certainly not going to buy F-mount lenses going forward. Nikon would be smart to license the mount specifications to Zeiss and perhaps Sigma to jumpstart things. Will Nikon ever, significantly outdistance Sony in sensors? Seems unlikely since Sony is doing the fab. That's not to say that Nikon sensors might have some small advantages.

Canon is a sleeping giant. They can clearly become (have become?) number two, and might pass Sony in volume on momentum and name recognition alone. They have build great adapters for existing EF lenses. The first body isn't attractive to me, but as others have pointed out, Canon tends to lead with a trial balloon consumer-level body and then follow with the pro bodies. Hopefully the function bar will go the way of the Dodo bird, and a joystick will evolve. The real question is can they develop a high resolution sensor with class-leading DR? They haven't yet, but they have been making small improvements.

What we don't know about any of these players is the rate at which they intend to iterate going forward. We know Sony can do it every couple of years, but we don't know how fast they can go when they have completion. Canon is big... they can throw lots of money at the problem. We have no idea how quickly Nikon will iterate or introduce higher end bodies.

The second half will be interesting... I will have to go get snacks before it starts.

Glenn
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