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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 9913 times)

jeremyrh

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2018, 01:34:21 AM »

So, now I have a camera that makes the job perfectly well.

I think that too. I have thought it following every new camera purchase :-)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 04:42:09 AM by jeremyrh »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2018, 04:11:39 AM »

https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r/11

It would appear that DPreview is as much as a Nikon fanboy as I am. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2018, 12:14:24 PM »

The last stats I saw had Sony’s unit ILC sales splitting at over 85% APSC, under 15% 35mm format. The idea that “Sony is mostly Full Frame” or that APSC format is part of the “low end” of the camera market that is going away is bizarre distortion of the facts—perhaps due to living in this Internet forum bubble of passionate and/or professional photographers.

Hint: the low end is mostly compacts, not c. $1000 ILC kits!
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2018, 11:04:40 PM »

I wonder what percentage of global mirrorless sales are in Asia? When I look around, either in New England or on the West Coast of the US, at what people are actually shooting with, Sony APS-C simply doesn't figure. The vast majority of ILCs I see, whether at a National Park, a baseball game (not in the press well) or just people running around the city taking pictures of their kids, are Canon and Nikon APS-C DSLRs - largely Rebels and D3x00s, but a fair smattering of everything up to D7x00s and 80Ds. The mirrorless I see is Fuji, Micro 4/3 and Sony FF in reasonably equal proportion (I'm not counting - just noting "I see that from time to time"). I can't recall when I last saw a Sony APS-C body, except that one (out of 400 over the years) of my students had one. I've also seen a lone Pentax DSLR, a film Leica, a Nikon F (well, maybe it was an F2), an Instax (student also had a D3200) and a few medium format film cameras (a Holga and a couple of TLRs) among MANY Canon and Nikon DSLRs and various compacts with controls.

It's possible that this is another case of a very popular camera in Asia simply not translating West very well. The EOS-M line has a large percentage of global mirrorless sales, but you pretty much never see them in the US - it turns out that they are huge sellers in Japan. The Fuji X-A series (which many US dealers don't even stock) is very popular in Thailand (I believe). I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sony APS-C is similar?

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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2018, 06:00:54 AM »

Could well be Dan. I see a fair amount of Sony APSC cameras around. That’s in Africa. I tend to head east mostly on holidays so don’t have much idea what’s up in Europe or North America.
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BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2018, 07:28:23 AM »

I’ve seen data showing that mirrorless share is lowest in the US, highest is Asia, with Europe in between. A few things though:
- The US consumer market is sometimes/often just slower in following a technological trend, especially the older market to whom ILC sales are a bit skewed here
- cameras in use is a lagging indicator! Of course with about 15 years of “affordable” DSLRs, there are far more in people’s hands than there are mirrorless cameras.
- Canon and Nikon between them still dominate ILC sales overall, due in part to a persistent and strong dominance of “shelfshare” and of “mindshare” as the only safe/prestigious brands, and so their now offering EVF cameras has the potential to shift the market share a lot towards mirrorless. Though for Nikon’s part that will require models at far less than $2600 for the cheapest kit, and thus will need smaller format options. Else Canon and Sony could build a huge lead over Nikon in choice of first ILC.
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viewfinder

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2018, 05:52:40 PM »

The difference in market mode (US to Europe etc) could just be the entrentched attitude to equating DSLR's with male jewllery, or just ideas of perceived 'maleness'    DSLR's are much more intrusive and 'in your face' which is why I changed to APS-C Sony models but from the American TV that I see (or could see) one cannot imagine the American male using a small discrete camera if there is the chance to use a larger and more 'phallic' device....

Interestingly, Nikon (to pick out but one maker) gets the bulk of it's profits and turnover from it's entry level DSLR range in APS-C   Over the last 4 years there have been three D3xxx models starting with the redoubtable D3300(2014) and then the 'mutilated' D3400 (2016) and D3500 (2018).   Why Nikon has purposely weakened these models is not clear (at least to me) especially since Nikon has also introduced three AF-P lenses for APS-C in the same period....Sony by comparison, has seemingly turned it's face to the wall on APS-C lenses and bodies in that period.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2018, 10:06:28 PM »

I believe that Nikon introduced P lenses to solve an imaginary problem with video AF behaviour...

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2018, 11:14:46 PM »

I believe that Nikon introduced P lenses to solve an imaginary problem with video AF behaviour...

Cheers,
Bernard
That problem is noise from AF motors being picked up by in- camera mikes during video recording, and the solution of using linear stepper motors seems to be industry-wide (in particular, Canon also uses them  in its STM lenses, some of which are for DSLRs). You are the first person I have read calling this an imaginary problem.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2018, 09:30:47 AM »

That problem is noise from AF motors being picked up by in- camera mikes during video recording, and the solution of using linear stepper motors seems to be industry-wide (in particular, Canon also uses them  in its STM lenses, some of which are for DSLRs). You are the first person I have read calling this an imaginary problem.

Let me rephrase... ;) The problem is real, but Nikon’s video AF was so abysmal till the Z that the noise of the lens AF motor should have been a rather low priority in my view.

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2018, 01:47:48 PM »

Let me rephrase... ;) The problem is real, but Nikon’s video AF was so abysmal till the Z that the noise of the lens AF motor should have been a rather low priority in my view.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes...but if they didn't fix the noise in the AF motors and came out with a better video camera...you'd still be sh*t out of luck using these noisy lenses.
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BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2018, 02:11:23 PM »

Yes...but if they didn't fix the noise in the AF motors and came out with a better video camera...you'd still be sh*t out of luck using these noisy lenses.
Exactly. And just as people typically keep lenses longer than digital camera bodies, so do lens deficiencies impede their owners for longer.

I am very much in the school of “think of the lenses first when choosing a digital photography system”.

P.S. I’ve just realised that we are defending Nikon against criticisms by Bernard!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 02:26:03 PM by BJL »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2018, 03:36:44 AM »

Exactly. And just as people typically keep lenses longer than digital camera bodies, so do lens deficiencies impede their owners for longer.

I am very much in the school of “think of the lenses first when choosing a digital photography system”.

P.S. I’ve just realised that we are defending Nikon against criticisms by Bernard!

Yep. I thought I had stepped into a parallel universe.
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FabienP

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2018, 07:15:59 PM »

Yep. I thought I had stepped into a parallel universe.

Well, I suppose there is nothing wrong in acknowledging a problem once it has been solved. And Bernard's solution is still to buy another Nikon camera, so nothing has really changed ;).

Cheers,

Fabien
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2018, 02:32:06 AM »

Well, I suppose there is nothing wrong in acknowledging a problem once it has been solved. And Bernard's solution is still to buy another Nikon camera, so nothing has really changed ;).

Cheers,

Fabien

To give Bernard his due he actually uses his cameras and shoots more than endless test charts and such. I regard him as a very accomplished photographer.
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govindvkumar

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2018, 10:02:44 AM »

As of Now, there is no clear winner. Still Sony leads with their a7RIII series. Canon and Nikon were able to pull some market share from Sony with their line up of mirrorless cameras. Let us see how the game matures in a couple of years. :)
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2018, 01:23:00 PM »

As of Now, there is no clear winner. Still Sony leads with their a7RIII series. Canon and Nikon were able to pull some market share from Sony with their line up of mirrorless cameras. Let us see how the game matures in a couple of years. :)

When you have basically 100% of the mirrorless full frame market there is really only one way to go. I'm actually quite surprised that Sony has held onto such a large percentage given both the recent Canon and Nikon releases and all the pent up demand from the loyalists for these cameras.
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kers

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2018, 01:46:06 PM »

I am not interested in market shares, up to a low point that a company cannot make new models/ exist.
Look at Apple -with all their money; what have they done since the iPhone? The Apple Watch? so you can check you are still alive?

A good camera + good lenses are interesting.
having said that ; on the site below a Z7 firmware wishlist with a lot of improvements that i find very sensible.

https://photographylife.com/nikon-z7-firmware-update-wishlist  )

Knowing Nikon for some years , they have a problem with updating firmware that brings new features;
They usually wait to put these in a new camera.
On that site the question is raised if that is the right way to keep your costumers happy.
Fuji has an different approach and bring new features with firmware updates.


« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 06:55:36 PM by kers »
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chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2018, 04:19:49 PM »

I am not interested in market shares, up to a low point that a company cannot make new models/ exist.
Look at Apple -with all their money; what have they done since the iPhone? The Apple Watch? so you can check you are still alive?

A good camera + good lenses are interesting.
having said that ; on this side a Z7 firmware wishlist with a lot of improvements that i find very sensible.

https://photographylife.com/nikon-z7-firmware-update-wishlist  )

Knowing Nikon for some years , they have a problem with updating firmware that brings new features;
They usually wait to put these in a new camera.
On that site the question is raised if that is the right way to keep your costumers happy.
Fuji has an different approach and bring new features with firmware updates.

The other way to look at it is Fuji releases half baked cameras that require additional functionality with FW releases. Personally i’d rather purchase cameras fully featured from the get go than waiting for additional features in some future FW.
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faberryman

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2018, 04:41:01 PM »

The other way to look at it is Fuji releases half baked cameras that require additional functionality with FW releases. Personally i’d rather purchase cameras fully featured from the get go than waiting for additional features in some future FW.
The Fujis are full featured when released. The updates add some features, none of which are monumental, and some find useful. I haven't updated my XE2 or XT2 to the latest version firmware, the XE2 because it changes the way some things are handled that I like as-is, and the XT2 because the changes are minor and I haven't felt the need. I was perfectly happy with both cameras as released. If you think the Fuji cameras are "half-baked" when released, you obviously don't have much experience with them. Nikon, Canon, and Sony also make nice cameras, but each model has a thread on this and other forums containing firmware upgrade wish lists. Good luck with that. I wouldn't hold my breath.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 04:57:00 PM by faberryman »
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