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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 52684 times)

faberryman

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #220 on: January 01, 2019, 04:34:19 pm »

With respect to current "winners".....a tidbit of info that may be of interest is that the EOS R is being rented 2:1 over the Nikon Z at LensRentals.
Which probably reflects the size of their respective user bases. I think brand loyalty and lens investment means that few user are going to cross over.
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #221 on: January 01, 2019, 04:54:59 pm »


Oh, and BTW, the best selling mirrorless of 2018 was the EOS M.

Do you the article stating this? Is this worldwide or just Japan?
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #222 on: January 01, 2019, 05:00:05 pm »

Better to rent first when you have doubts as to whether the camera delivers value. ;)

It isn’t a war for photographers, but it is one for the manufacturers.

Cheers,
Bernard

If it's a war for the manufactures, Canon is going to kick butt. It's huge market share is going to steam roll everyone else...just like they have done in the DSLR world.

Bernard, I originally thought you wanted to discuss the features and usability of the two mirrorless newcomers from a customers perspective rather than looking at it from a manufactures perspective.

One perspective Canon will trounce Nikon in sales...but from the other perspective, Nikon appears to be the more capable camera with their initial releases.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #223 on: January 01, 2019, 09:02:04 pm »

We shall see.

There are few examples of companies managing to keep business up for a long time when they keep delivering products not matching competition.

If I am not mistaken yourself have decided that Sony was providing better performance and value. Are you not a pretty typical (former) Canon shooter?

The switch to mirrorless was a unique opportunity for Canon to show a different face... and we got the R body and great show off lenses not matching the body at all... Why would Canon users think they will get something better some day when all evidence during the past 10 years point to the contrary? And why would that not hurt their business in a context where their bread and butter (low end DSLRs) is being eaten alive by smart phones?

I fully acknowledge their amazing marketing abilities but people aren’t stupid just like you weren’t stupid when you took the smart decision to bail out.

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #224 on: January 02, 2019, 12:36:35 am »




If I am not mistaken yourself have decided that Sony was providing better performance and value. Are you not a pretty typical (former) Canon shooter?


Cheers,
Bernard

I switched to Sony because it was the only model that was mirrorless and full frame. My focus with photography was changing from mainly landscape to mainly travel and I needed a lighter kit. Sony had it, CaNikon did not. I did a quick look at Nikon and it was no better, even worse at lighter travel kit. At least Canon had their M cameras and lenses, Nikon had nothing.

 I have no doubts Canon will dominate mirrorless sales. The lowly M cameras sells very well already and with their R introduction, things will pick up. They have that much brand power.

You seem to imply Canon lost customers to Sony...but in truth Nikon was the big loser as Canon's market share remained quite constant as Sony became relevant...but Nikon's share of the camera market dropped quite drastically. I don't see anything changing as things move to mirrorless.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #225 on: January 02, 2019, 01:04:12 am »

Do you have data demonstrating that more Sony FF camera buyers came from Nikon than from Canon?

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #226 on: January 02, 2019, 02:07:29 am »

I have anecdotal evidence but not data in so far as I know a few people who waited to see what what Nikon and Canon would do with mirrorless then bought Sony. I also know a few Nikon users who bought the Z. It’s all over the place really except I don’t personally know a single person who had bought the Canon R. 
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #227 on: January 02, 2019, 02:56:50 am »

I have anecdotal evidence but not data in so far as I know a few people who waited to see what what Nikon and Canon would do with mirrorless then bought Sony. I also know a few Nikon users who bought the Z. It’s all over the place really except I don’t personally know a single person who had bought the Canon R.

Neither do I since 100% of the Canon shooters I know had already moved to Sony, 0% of Nikon shooters...
 
Would you mind sharing by PM the contacts of those Nikon shooters who decided to go Sony after the Z was announced?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #228 on: January 02, 2019, 07:10:54 am »

He manages a largish camera store and away for two weeks. I will put you in contact with him when he returns. I don’t actually have his email. 
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #229 on: January 02, 2019, 10:22:51 pm »

Which probably reflects the size of their respective user bases. I think brand loyalty and lens investment means that few user are going to cross over.

I agree. And that's the conclusion Matt Granger also came to when he was at the Canon exhibit at Photokina.
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #230 on: January 02, 2019, 10:25:32 pm »

Do you the article stating this? Is this worldwide or just Japan?

Just do a search for an article for the best selling mirrorless camera. They all direct to Amazon, where the Canon EOS M APS-C the best selling mirrorless camera of 2018. It is also the best-selling mirrorless in Japan.
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #231 on: January 02, 2019, 10:27:15 pm »

If it's a war for the manufactures, Canon is going to kick butt. It's huge market share is going to steam roll everyone else...just like they have done in the DSLR world.

"You are correct, sir" – Sidney Greenstreet, The Maltese Falcon
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Stephen Scharf

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #232 on: January 02, 2019, 10:33:45 pm »


You seem to imply Canon lost customers to Sony...but in truth Nikon was the big loser as Canon's market share remained quite constant as Sony became relevant...but Nikon's share of the camera market dropped quite drastically. I don't see anything changing as things move to mirrorless.

You are also correct about this, as you were with your previous post that the vast majority of, and very large installed base, of Canon users are not going to switch away from Canon, no matter what. These folks are simply not going to buy a Sony camera, period. Can't say that I blame them, either.

In the long run, Canon will have the dominant market share, as they alway have had, for decades; approximately 60-65% of the installed base of users for ILCs. Sony and Nikon will likely end up with about 15% each.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #233 on: January 03, 2019, 02:59:15 am »

You are also correct about this, as you were with your previous post that the vast majority of, and very large installed base, of Canon users are not going to switch away from Canon, no matter what. These folks are simply not going to buy a Sony camera, period. Can't say that I blame them, either.

In the long run, Canon will have the dominant market share, as they alway have had, for decades; approximately 60-65% of the installed base of users for ILCs. Sony and Nikon will likely end up with about 15% each.

Nikon and Canon have been much closer than that over the past 10-15 years, more like 45%-35%. It only very recently that Canon’s super low margin policy has helped them sell more low end DSLRs which has resulted in a higher share of new yearly sold DSLRs.

Most of the lenses owned are not even usable on M bodies, M being a dead mount walking anyways... and are useless on R bodies.

There is simply no reason whatsoever why Canon should increase its share in the mirrorless world, and their recent increase of “market share” is useless. Logic points to a significant decrease.

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #234 on: January 03, 2019, 03:58:39 am »

You are also correct about this, as you were with your previous post that the vast majority of, and very large installed base, of Canon users are not going to switch away from Canon, no matter what. These folks are simply not going to buy a Sony camera, period. Can't say that I blame them, either.

In the long run, Canon will have the dominant market share, as they alway have had, for decades; approximately 60-65% of the installed base of users for ILCs. Sony and Nikon will likely end up with about 15% each.

I dumped all my canon gear two years ago and moved to Sony. Have used mostly Canon for 35mm for quite some time. After using 1Ds cameras of various iterations I couldn’t like the 5D. I’m not a press guy and don’t shoot sport either so the 1DX didn’t serve a real purpose.

Sony hit the spot. Perhaps Canon will introduce a better R body but the current mirrorless offering isnt my cup of tea. I really use IBIS. I know Canon claim in lens stabilization is better, which I’m not convinced of anyway, but my most commonly used lens handheld is the standards and less extreme wide angle primes which are not offered with stabilization anyway.

Canon make good kit for sure. It’s all a bit dull at the moment though. I’m not a big gear head but it’s nice to like your camera and be at least a little excited about it.
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32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #235 on: January 03, 2019, 05:15:43 am »

There is simply no reason whatsoever why Canon should increase its share in the mirrorless world, and their recent increase of “market share” is useless. Logic points to a significant decrease.

Cheers,
Bernard

Huh? What do you mean? It's commonly accepted that mirrorless is going to replace slappers to a significant degree. So, if Canon manages to gradually change over existing userbase, its marketshare for mirrorless will increase.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #236 on: January 03, 2019, 05:36:17 am »

Huh? What do you mean? It's commonly accepted that mirrorless is going to replace slappers to a significant degree. So, if Canon manages to gradually change over existing userbase, its marketshare for mirrorless will increase.

Yes, but they will face a dominant Sony and a talented and agressive Nikon, plus tens of millions of superbly performing smart phones that will make their cheap offering a lot less relevant.

I’d be surprised if they had more than 30% market share in 3 years.

Cheers,
Bernard

32BT

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #237 on: January 03, 2019, 06:46:47 am »

Yes, but they will face a dominant Sony and a talented and agressive Nikon, plus tens of millions of superbly performing smart phones that will make their cheap offering a lot less relevant.

I’d be surprised if they had more than 30% market share in 3 years.

Cheers,
Bernard

But that doesn't change the landscape. They all suffer the smartphone problem, so for marketshare purposes it can be ignored.

Nikon may be talented, but have an extremely long trackrecord for not turning that into more marketshare.

Which leaves Sony and Panasonic, both of which might be able to eat away some marketshare on the basis of video demands. In most other respects, it is not going to replace Canon's professional market and services.

Now, admittedly, that particular marketshare may already be distributed as per your assessment of 30%. It has already been mentioned in this and other threads that we don't really know undiluted numbers...
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kers

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #238 on: January 03, 2019, 08:54:46 am »

I would like Nikon to give more attention to better software. Also I do not understand that they did not make work of a better wireless connection built in.
Now they seem to have wifi and bluetooth in the camera but I still cannot make a quick wireless photo and have to use Nikons or third party external devices for my needs.
The three lenses introduced with the Z's are good, lightweight and not too expensive. Exactly what they need to be. Canon seems to be puzziling what direction they want to go; but i read they also introduced some very fine lenses, but only the 35mm is lightweight.
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #239 on: January 03, 2019, 10:02:00 am »

Do you have data demonstrating that more Sony FF camera buyers came from Nikon than from Canon?

Cheers,
Bernard

No data other than Canon's market share remained the same, Sony went up by 15% and Nikon's went down by 15%.

Don't know if people are jumping from Nikon or just not buying Nikon...but the end result is the same.
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