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Author Topic: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black  (Read 1794 times)

gfsymon

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z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« on: November 07, 2018, 04:27:38 pm »

I’ve had a 24” z3100 since 2008, which sees very little use, but has ‘bursts’ of use from time to time.  For example, a year ago this week, I printed around 30 meters in a couple of days.  Since then, I’ve probably printed 3 metres.  This week, I’m embarking on another 30 to 35 metres.

I‘ve had problems with the MK-R head over the last two or three years. Many thanks to Mark for helping me with the head cleaning / shaking etc., but I ceded and bought a new head, which printed just fine, but has failed again, with the machine lying dormant.  Again thanks to Mark’s pointers I realised I should have been ‘documenting’ my printer since new, by printing regular Diagnostic prints.  They tell a whole story.  I’m now doing this.

So currently I’m trying to sort my z3100 out to print these 30 odd metres and the MK is still playing up.  Weak Red and zero MK.  I’ve left the printer turned on for the last year, in the hope that the drip-drip might fix its issues, but no.  I’m profiling with an i1 and a 2nd generation spectro (Gretag), printing out 3500 targets, which is a cure for any banding and really makes a difference for colour.  After a number of test prints (maybe 3 to 4 metres) and a couple of Diagnostic, I started to notice hints of MK, so I persevered and after three or four MK-R head cleans and some more Diagnostics ... much to my delight, the MK has returned and more importantly the Red is much more intense.  After years of making do, I’m feeling that this old z3100 can once more do the job as well as it did back in 2008.

(I should add, that the MK is not important to me, because I always print on gloss or semi-gloss/satin, with gloss enhancer, so I’ve been ok printing with it blocked ... although wondering about how the red is and if the MK is actually used even for gloss prints ... all so mysterious)

However ... my last Diagnostic this afternoon, threw me a bit.  I ran a Calibration (from the front panel) and then another Diagnostic print, expecting to see the MK really clean up (it did) and the Red to get perhaps even more saturated/intense, *however* I was surprised that the Red moved back in intensity, to a slightly paler colour, similar to a previous Diagnostic (subsequent to an MK-R head clean and Diagnostic print 15mins earlier).

Question ...

Can Calibration (from the front panel) reduce the intensity of a colour subsequently printed via Diagnostic or has it as I fear, had a blockage return slightly?  Obviously I want to get it as consistent as possible prior to printing out and profiling the target again.

(NB ... I can’t see any breaks in the Red lines in the Diagnostic print, either in the Diagnostics where the Red is paler or where it is more intense ... in both cases the lines are complete.  The MK has gone from zero ink being printed ... zilch ... to only a couple of breaks in the lines in the last Diagnostic print. So almost perfect.)

2nd incidental question ...

What does front panel Calibration actually do?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 04:46:02 pm by gfsymon »
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glyph

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 05:37:53 pm »

I've never tried calibrating a paper when my printer is malfunctioning, but it could absolutely screw up subsequent prints if you did. What HP calls calibration, most call linearization. It makes minor adjustments to the output to restore the base print mode to factory standards that are as linear as possible. Profiles adjust the output downstream of this correction. It is a characteristic of thermal heads that they drift slightly over time as compared to piezo heads, so this is how HP addresses the issue.
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kers

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 05:53:07 pm »

I have a Z3100 since jan 2007- when it was first on sale -and always have left the printer on ( standby)
My prints are usually on glossy material so MK is hardly used.
That might be the problem...
For me the MK-head is the first to get dirty in a sense it leaves ink ( crumbles) on the paper.
The MK-red head needs far more cleaning than the other heads.
MK has a coarser grain, maybe that is one of the problems.
As a photographer i print not that much, and this MK-R head is my second in all that time and reads 1000ml ink-usage at the moment.
Red is also a bit weak in my case. MK is allright.
IF somebody knows how to clean the bottom part of the carriage ( with the printheads) without dismantling i am interested.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 06:45:03 pm by kers »
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deanwork

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 07:08:57 pm »

Yea, you can’t leave this printer “dormant”. The MK is almost all dense carbon and if it dries in the head or even in the lines you can be asking for big trouble. Same is true with Canon and even Epson.  They designed this Z system to be on all the time. I have two of them and they have never been off line and the heads are monitored a few times a day. If it detects problems it does a cleaning. You are going to have to replace the MK/ Red head again.

John



I have a Z3100 since jan 2007- when it was first on sale -and always have left the printer on ( standby)
My prints are usually on glossy material so MK is hardly used.
That might be the problem...
For me the MK-head is the first to get dirty in a sense it leaves ink ( crumbles) on the paper.
The MK-red head needs far more cleaning than the other heads.
MK has a coarser grain, maybe that is one of the problems.
As a photographer i print not that much, and this MK-R head is my second in all that time and reads 1000ml ink-usage at the moment.
Red is also a bit weak in my case. MK is allright.
IF somebody knows how to clean the bottom part of the carriage ( with the printheads) without dismantling i am interested.
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 09:57:13 pm »

You are going to have to replace the MK/ Red head again.
John

+1  John is correct.  MK R is always a problem.

Best to just replace it and move on with the work.

Best,

Mark
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gfsymon

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 02:45:59 am »

What HP calls calibration, most call linearization. It makes minor adjustments to the output to restore the base print mode to factory standards that are as linear as possible. Profiles adjust the output downstream of this correction. It is a characteristic of thermal heads that they drift slightly over time as compared to piezo heads, so this is how HP addresses the issue.

Thanks for the excellent explanation.  So, if I clean a couple more times, print a few more feet then redo Calibration prior to printing and measuring my 3500 chart, I should be ok?

For me the MK-head is the first to get dirty in a sense it leaves ink ( crumbles) on the paper.

Ahhh ... That is actually good news for me and explains what I’m sometimes seeing.  Years ago, I replaced the belt, which was crumbling after 2 to 3 years.  I occasionally see these marks on the prints now and was assuming it was the same thing, even though my recollection of the belt crumbling, is bits of dark brown/paler brown stuff on prints.  I was dreading having to replace the belt again ... even though the (that) wonderful video of how to do it, walked me through a process I would never otherwise have embarked upon.

One question which would help explain what happens with MK and how to deal with it is; what papers actually use MK?  Is it ever used with Satin for example?  I’m using HP’s 260g Premium ID Satin (GE-ON) for this 30 odd metres of prints.  Will the MK ink be used at all during this printing?

Really, I’m wondering why the MK-R head has cleared itself.  If it is the MK that is causing the problem, can just the Red alone, somehow clear the blockage.  If so, then MK blocking up will presumably also block and therefore weaken the Red.  Does the ink come out the same holes for both inks? How do the feed tubes work? Are they ever shared?

I have tried in the past cleaning the MK-R head (front panel) to bring it back, but it has never worked.  So I’m surprised that it’s come back on its own and wondering why.
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gfsymon

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 03:17:16 am »

I'm also wondering if Calibration, would affect colour intensity on a Diagnostic printout??  Isn't Diagnostic some sort of zero altered print?
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 03:33:01 am »

You can find out which papers use MK ink here:

http://z3200.com/Working_with_other%20Papers_HP-Z3100_z3200_Printers.htm

MK (matte Black) is used  on matte papers.  It wouldn’t hurt to occassionally do a few prints on your favorite matte paper to excercise the MK R printhead.

You mentioned that you’re about to begin a big job.  MK R is one of the nost vulnerable printheads in the Z series printers for reasons Kers and John mentioned. IMO it doesn’t pay to have an iffy printhead for an important job.  The MK R printhead will work sporadically when it becomes clogged.  Usually one is farther ahead to just replace it when it starts acting up more than once.

Color blending is a dark art with the Z’s.  No telling how it’s being used and mixed depending upon which preset is being used.

Over the years that one printhead has been a fly in the ointment for me.

FWIW/YMMV.

-M
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Damir

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 10:24:13 am »

Same here

Z3100 from 2007. still in use, after so many years of usage:
I always have spare MK/R head
I always clean MK/R head (outside of head - not nozzle cleaning) before some intense printing job - that head is the most dirty of all

Unlike you, I almost always print on matte paper, glosyy paper came to my printer maybe once in a year.
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jrp55262

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 11:03:15 am »

One other thing I discovered years ago is that if there's anything wrong with the rear carriage bushing it can cause the right-hand side of the carriage to "settle" on to the service station, which gets it dirty from the waste ink sitting there.  Guess which head is on the right-hand side of the carriage?  I was getting serious problems with muddy reds that no amount of tweaking would fix.  Long story short, the rear bushing failed to the point that I had to replace it, I noticed the carriage settling and replaced the MK-R head.  Voila, no more muddy reds!
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gfsymon

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 11:31:07 am »

Mark, this MK-R head is actually fairly new.  It has only run a couple of rolls of 22m paper.  So I'm hopeful that the issue is solved ... perhaps thanks to leaving the printer on for a year?  :)

I spent a while this morning printing Diagnostics and cleaning the heads again, prior to profiling.  I noticed in the user manual, that it says a Calibration should be run prior to profiling too, so I did that again.  Diagnostics are very consistent now, with almost no gaps anywhere.

That said, I was surprised to see that the first Diagnostic I ran this morning, after an MK-R head clean and before printing an image, had banding across B, G-N and M.  I ran another head clean and printed a 61x15 test print that I use and then ran the Diagnostic again and it was fine.  This suggests that it's a good idea to always run a small test print, to get the inks flowing, if the machine has been sitting idle for some time (16 hrs for me ... left turned on though).

I profiled again, re-printing the 3500 chart.  Subsequent prints were fab.  Really close monitor match.  Very smooth transitions, accurate colours.  I printed about 5 metres of images and then ran another Diagnostic at the end of the afternoon, to see if anything had gone awry ... it was even better than previously in the 'slanted line tests', with only two or three gaps, in all of the tests.  MK had a couple of gaps and R looked perfect.

So tomorrow, I continue with many more metres of larger prints.

However!!

I'm have an intermittent problem with gunk smearing on some prints.  I'm guessing it comes from the 'head parking station' (or whatever it's called) because the smear/lumps are only at the start of a print, over the first two or three inches of paper after which, all is fine.

I'm wondering if this could be down to all the head cleaning I've been doing (maybe 7 or 8 cycles).  I moved the head carriage to the centre (as for replacing heads) and shone a torch into the parking bay, where I can see a lot of wet ink.  Is this normal?  I took the MK-R and PK heads out to check them and they look fine.  No gunk anywhere.

Anyone have any suggestions of how to deal with this ... or will it fix itself as the ink deposits dry out?

Here's a couple snaps of the guilty gunk:

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kers

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 07:25:26 pm »

Maybe it is time to open the right side and clean the service stationa area... that is where the ink dirt comes from...

(my problem is to clean the bottom of the probably dirty carriage... )
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deanwork

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2018, 06:29:13 pm »

Clean it up thoroughlybon the right side. Your head is picking up all that crap. If your waste tank looks full have it replaced. I’ve been using Z printers for 12 years and I can count the number of manual head cleanings on one hand. Keep it plugged in, always.

John


Maybe it is time to open the right side and clean the service stationa area... that is where the ink dirt comes from...

(my problem is to clean the bottom of the probably dirty carriage... )
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gfsymon

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 06:41:07 am »

Many thanks for the help on this.  I’ve now finished the ~50 metre print run and I thought I’d share what I learned, lest it be of use to someone else.

So, turns out I bought my z3100 in 2007.  I have used it in bursts, with long periods of idleness of sometimes as much as almost 2 years, but equally there have been short burst of heavy usage.  When I’ve needed it for something, it has always been a very frustrating process, as I spend countless hours trying to 1/ get HP and Apple’s software updates to work together and 2/ get the print quality consistent.  The printer has had 2 head changes over the years, both MK-R I think.  I never print matt, but I also know that the MK ink is the bugbear of the printer, as I learned from HP engineers themselves.  I feel kind of dumb about my use of the printer, because I was involved, in a small way, with the beta process, back around the launch of the z3200, the upside of which was being invited to Photokina by HP in 2008, where they had two very large prints of my pictures hanging on their stand, extolling the values of their new red inks. I was also fortunate to be invited a few years ago, to their facility in Barcelona, where they develop their printing solutions and where we were shown their Indigo solutions. What a great place/facility it is.

In Feb 2017, I replaced the MK-R head, as despite Mark’s help, I couldn’t get the existing head to print properly.  Then 6 months later, after the printer had lain idle for around 4 months, I found that it was already not printing MK-R properly on the Diagnostic chart.  There was a lot of gunk on the head and after some cleaning etc. It was printing ‘almost’ normally again.  However, the Diagnostic chart still had quite a lot of missing lines on the diagonals of several colours.  This I assumed was simply the age of the printer.  Wrong.

This time last year, I once again had problems with the MK head, after another 4 or 5 months of little to no use.  I had a large print job and just accepted to make the best I could out of it.  *However* I also decided to follow Mark’s advice and just leave the z3100 turned on ALL the time.  And so once again, after a full year with almost zero use, I come to a large print job, of around 45 metres of 24” paper.  I started off with a Diagnostic chart and unsurprisingly, the MK block and diagonals were *empty*.  Zero ink.  There were also what HP docs suggest is an acceptable amount of missing diagonals and missing lines in the narrow vertical blocks, in some of the other colours.  Also … and this is the *crucial* element, the R ink was pale.  This is what has been causing me the most problems, as the colour is not consistent for a sustained period.

As I previously mentioned, I ran a number of head cleaning cycles on the MK and this seems to have resulted in a build up of purged ink, which then was being picked up by the head and causing some smears at the start of prints.  Not every print … probably every 2nd or 3rd print.  So I left the printer overnight and tried cleaning the resting/parking station in the morning.  Oops.  I didn’t take the side panel off, but moved the heads to the head-swaping position and could just seen in well enough to see that there was a large blob of gunk, at the far side of the sponges.  I tried to stop the carriage by lifting the perspex lid when it was to the left, hoping I’d have enough time to clear the gunk away.  This didn’t work as I hoped.  It took a few attempts before I was confident about being able to get in with enough time, before the head came back, but then I discovered, that the sponges are not there when the printer is printing. Instead there’s a plastic tray, which is on a spring.  I cleaned this anyway.  There was a lot of wet ink on it.  Bad news was that the printer now told me I had a paper jam.  Following the instructions and 2 restarts failed to clear the message.  Oh dear … then I noticed that the head wasn’t going fully into its rest station and in a moment of inspiration, I tried to move it and much to my surprise, it glided easily.  I pushed it fully into its resting station and restarted once again.  Bingo.  All was well again.  Phew.  I then continued with the day’s printing and had zero problems of smeared ink, until very late on, at which point I decided to stop for the day.  The next day, there were zero ink smears once again.  So, my conclusion is that my cleaning was probably of no consequence whatsoever and it was simply the time I allowed for the inks to dry, or flatten out (gravity?) that solved the issue.  I think it may have been caused in the first place by the extensive head-cleaning I had done.  Subsequent to this, I’ve had another full day or printing, with no smear at all.

So … the results of this long print run are : a new addiction to Diagnostic charts, but other than that I’ve basically learned that if you print with these machines, then they will perform as intended, but sitting idle and turned off, is a killer.  My Diagnostics have gone from serious problems with the MK-R and moderate to slight problems with others colours, to *absolutely perfect everywhere*.  The last Diagnostic, under very close examination with a loupe, shows not a single break in any of the diagonals nor any lines in the narrow blocks to the left and the big blocks at the top, are all absolutely solid.  How did I get to this point?  Leaving the printer turned on and printing a lot.  The question now is … as it enters another period of non use, will leaving it turned on all the time, mean that I can come back to it in 2 or 3 months time and it will print a perfect Diagnostic straight out?  Time will tell … but my feeling is that yes, it will.  At least I now know how to fix it.  I’ll probably run a Diagnostic every month of non use and I’ll report back how it goes.
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shaun

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2018, 02:02:31 pm »

Same issue here with red/MB over the years. Had help on this form with Mark and others but never achieved satisfaction. I have left printer on now for a year and the red/mk is blocked again. 2 printheads year approx at this rate.  Really need to get another printer as its too time consuming.
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kers

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 02:26:13 pm »

I think for this printer and any inkjet printer it is a good thing to print all colours - say once every week.. to keep the printheads in shape.

i have made a target with colours measured from the calibration pattern that i use.
If i print it on glossy with GE and matte paper all heads are used.
 (my Z3100 printer has most problems with the colour green)
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kevk

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 01:58:53 am »

I tried to stop the carriage by lifting the perspex lid when it was to the left, hoping I’d have enough time to clear the gunk away.  This didn’t work as I hoped.  It took a few attempts before I was confident about being able to get in with enough time, before the head came back
Go into the front panel menu and tell it you want to change a print head. That moves the carriage out of the parking station, then turn off the printer (the power switch) and you can easily move the carriage further out of the way. After cleaning just turn it all back on and it reboots and moves the carriage back to the parking station.
...and get into the habit of cleaning the crud out of there every month, especially if you are about to do a big print run. (this has made my MK-R head last much longer).

I use coffee filter papers for cleaning, usually 3 or 4 each time.

Have fun,
Kevin
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gfsymon

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2018, 04:21:49 am »

Same issue here with red/MB over the years. Had help on this form with Mark and others but never achieved satisfaction. I have left printer on now for a year and the red/mk is blocked again. 2 printheads year approx at this rate.  Really need to get another printer as its too time consuming.

Shaun, when you’re printing, do you ever get a *completely perfect* Diagnostic?  It’s clear to me that I’ve gotten this solely because of the sheer volume I’ve just printed.  My MK-R head has seen very little use since new, but was totally blocked on MK and the R was weak prior to the big print run.  The question for me now, is will the drip drip of it being continually powered on, work as intended by the designers and keep the heads clear.  I live in a moist/temperate climate (Seine valley in Normandy).  We’ve had a couple of hot summer’s recently, but the proximity of the Seine (100m) means the air is often moist, especially around dawn. Currently, we’re blanketed in mist, with water dripping from the trees. No rain for a while, but no shortage of water for the garden.  I understand that this can make a big difference to how well the heads stand up to time and lack of use.  I’m not sure how others living in hot-dry areas fare.
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shaun

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2018, 10:23:58 am »

I last replaced print head in March this year and its been powered on since. My intention was to take it apart and see if their was a line blockage.  I did a diagnostic then and all was good and another a couple of months ago and all good. But now when I need it its clogged 3 head cleans still no luck.
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gfsymon

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Re: z3100 and the dreaded Matt Black
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2018, 11:21:57 am »

Go into the front panel menu and tell it you want to change a print head. That moves the carriage out of the parking station, then turn off the printer (the power switch) and you can easily move the carriage further out of the way. After cleaning just turn it all back on and it reboots and moves the carriage back to the parking station.
...and get into the habit of cleaning the crud out of there every month, especially if you are about to do a big print run. (this has made my MK-R head last much longer).

I use coffee filter papers for cleaning, usually 3 or 4 each time.

Have fun,
Kevin

Thanks for this Kevin.  *Very* handy tip.  I would have been reluctant to turn off the printer with the head in this position.
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