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Author Topic: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny  (Read 16887 times)

Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2018, 01:54:05 pm »

Keith’s images are “travel atmospherics” because we know he was travelling when he took them. If a local took the same picture it would be street? That means it’s not the image on its own that determines what genre it is but we have to make an assessment based on things totally outside the image.

Anyway for me the genre thing is a distraction. Do people really go out with a plan to shoot street or landscape or whatever? I guess they must do. I never have.

This thread is teaching me how some other people think and that’s good I’m sure.


No, I think that's a simplistic explanation of the genre. Were the same shots taken by an Indian photographer they would have fitted within the same visual genre: travel atmospherics. Exactly the same thing happens when somebody local in Scotland photographs a highland gathering and associated games; they are what they are regardless of the photographer's nationality.

Actually, having lived in India for about eight years, I believe the pictures would probably not excite an Indian resident in the slightest because they are simply of what much of India consists. Nothing new to an Indian. Probably the only Indians interested in making photographs in the genre would be those with a stock images contract or Tourist Board association. They are attractive to non-Indians precisely because of their difference to our norm.

As for folks going out to shoot a specific genre: maybe they often do. That genre would probably be governed by the likelihood of the material available to the particular photographer. Availability sure controls what I can produce. Think of the work of Peter Beard in Africa and why that did so much for his reputation in the West.

Rob

RSL

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2018, 02:11:50 pm »

Let's give it a try. In which quadrant of the clock would this photo fall? (Russ, I hope you don't mind to use your photo?)

Sorry, Ivo. Haven't a clue what you're talking about.
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Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2018, 02:16:50 pm »

Sorry, Ivo. Haven't a clue what you're talking about.

I reckon it is a yes.
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RSL

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2018, 03:15:00 pm »

Sorry. Now I see, you're talking about Jean-Claude's absurd clock. I don't place photographs in clocks. I place them in genres, which is what most people do with most art.
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Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2018, 03:29:23 pm »

Sorry. Now I see, you're talking about Jean-Claude's absurd clock. I don't place photographs in clocks. I place them in genres, which is what most people do with most art.

That is so far it can go here on Lula. Open minded as a Thomas Withers West Bromwich safe.
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RSL

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2018, 03:43:43 pm »

.
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Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2018, 04:00:09 pm »

.

You can ignore this topic, no need to Filibuster.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2018, 12:15:00 am »

I’m sure genres are very useful for people that feel a need to put stuff in boxes but genres themselves are not self existent. Genres are concepts constructed by people and can be useful in all sorts of ways. Where they are a danger is where they stifle growth and creativity and even enjoyment of the task at hand. A very good example of this is the street sub forum that has been sterilised and virtually killed off by this process.

Ivo I am keen to continue this discussion and I think we need to look at the genre debate as part of this process since some people delight in it and some people find it stifles creativity. To me it’s simple. Do we take photos to satisfy a genre or to communicate something? Can we do both and do we need to? Can we come up with new more relevant genres and do we need to?
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Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2018, 01:08:46 am »

I’m sure genres are very useful for people that feel a need to put stuff in boxes but genres themselves are not self existent. Genres are concepts constructed by people and can be useful in all sorts of ways. Where they are a danger is where they stifle growth and creativity and even enjoyment of the task at hand. A very good example of this is the street sub forum that has been sterilised and virtually killed off by this process.

Ivo I am keen to continue this discussion and I think we need to look at the genre debate as part of this process since some people delight in it and some people find it stifles creativity. To me it’s simple. Do we take photos to satisfy a genre or to communicate something? Can we do both and do we need to? Can we come up with new more relevant genres and do we need to?

That sounds like a sensible approach, Martin. Thanks.

Ok how can we investigate further ....

I don’t feel the ‘clock’ approach is the same as defining genres. Even the Barret categories are not like that. This plays on a different level of understanding.

I’m helped when I understand to what I look, and it helps me to understand why I do things in my creative process. And eventually it could help me in how I look at things and how I bring it together in a picture.

I ‘m so intrigued in La Chapelle and how he works and I can’t help to see underlying patterns that reminds me to Witkin, I want to understand, or holistically feel, how and why ‘I’ see this familiarity.  That break trough could be the start of a new artistic flow to create some pictures.

And before somebody throw up that the urge to create is something that comes as natural, think twice. I feel it is a struggle inside and things don’t come easy.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2018, 01:23:53 am »

I agree Ivo. The creative process is complex and can be derailed. I noticed when I was a kid that it was hard to be creative when very hungry, or tired. Take the physical distractions out of it and you find a level of pychological distractions. It all needs to be dealt with at some point.

I am a naturally curious person and I have learnt to use that as a driver. It can also be a distraction in that I tend to hop around too much.

I also think the clock approach, while I may not be using it, is not exactly the same as a genre based classiification system. I think genres as in landscape, portrait and so on is the most simple level of abstraction when dealing with classification of images. I’m not saying it’s not useful but it is very simple and as such very restrictive. The clock system is a higher level of abstraction I would say. The problem is higher levels of abstraction can become complex and difficult to hold in the mind as a useful tool. You will need to decide for yourself I think.

An example of how I work. I did a series on battlefields in Zululand. You can find them on my new website if you are interested. The link is on my profile here. I chose the subject as in battlefields. I decided I wanted to show the landscape as battles choose a landscape for tactical reasons. I also decided to shoot mostly in the harsh dry winter landscape and in the middle of the day. I didn’t want the pictures to be romantic or pretty. I also opted for slightly uncomfortable but static compositions for much the same reason. I wanted the images to be a bit awkward. That’s how I think when engaging a project. Genre isn’t even thought about.
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Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2018, 04:08:48 am »

Martin, why do you appear to believe that the existence of genres means that you are therefore forced into shooting to fit one? Surely, you have this back to front: you shoot whatever you feel is important or interesting to you, and then, after you have done that, it's uo to you or somebody else - should they feel the need - to put that work into some genre-related category. In no way does the post-shooting aspect, which may or may not come from, or matter to you, have any bearing on your direction unless you want it to have.

Rob

KLaban

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2018, 04:15:28 am »

As a keen horticulturist I value taxonomy. As a individual and as a creative I hate to be pigeonholed.

Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2018, 04:53:08 am »

That sounds like a sensible approach, Martin. Thanks.

Ok how can we investigate further ....

I don’t feel the ‘clock’ approach is the same as defining genres. Even the Barret categories are not like that. This plays on a different level of understanding.

I’m helped when I understand to what I look, and it helps me to understand why I do things in my creative process. And eventually it could help me in how I look at things and how I bring it together in a picture.

I ‘m so intrigued in La Chapelle and how he works and I can’t help to see underlying patterns that reminds me to Witkin, I want to understand, or holistically feel, how and why ‘I’ see this familiarity.  That break trough could be the start of a new artistic flow to create some pictures.

And before somebody throw up that the urge to create is something that comes as natural, think twice. I feel it is a struggle inside and things don’t come easy.

Ivo, I can understand how you may believe in systems as aids to creativity because, as far as I can tell, you are from an engineering background, so systems are part of your life. My engineering background was four years as apprentice, after which I got myself transferred, in the fifth year, into the company photo department, and never did anything else but photography for the rest of my career. I hated engineering life, and only got into it to avoid a worse one in the armed forces. My natural driving force has been from within, and on a very unclear kind of level where it has never been quantified, qualified or analysed: it just is - almost wrote was - and because of that built-in nature of the thing, I feel no need to question it or to try and channel it in some way: it knows all by itself what it wants the rest of me to do.

Frankly, looking at your clocks etc. frightens me. It appears to be such an artificial, mechanistic way of cutting up one's own soul much in the way that an autopsy would achieve. You may have sussed that, as did Jeanloup Sieff, I hold a very low opinion of those who take art and try to turn it into brand, force eqivalents and measures of worth betwen artists and, even worse, push some to financial success at the cost of others and sail on sweetly to wealth aboard their collective ship of cynicism, favouritism and hype.

Of course there is a struggle within; the first one is about what to do at all; is it even worth getting out of bed this chilly morning? The next one is often that of money: what can I or must I do to pay the rent and light bills? (Echoes there of Leiter, who should know.)

Other photographers of note or noteriety. The only ones that I want to know anything about are the ones whose work grabs me. It always starts with the work. I have no interest in names, and working my way through a catalogue simply to tick boxes and highten my awareness score and imagined street cred is not something I waste my life attempting. Let a great pìcture catch my eye and then yes, the inquisitive fuse is lit and the Internet gets my attention right away. Sadly, there are either fewer and fewer such names to research, or I have already found most of them and the world is less full of glory than I'd hoped.

Comfort zones. I think them essential. Having found one Piss Christ I have no wish to find it or its relatives ever again; having seen one defiled, mutilated and dishonoured human remain I have no wish to gaze upon more of them. The world contains so much pain, ugliness and horror as it is, that avoiding it seems to make greater sense. Far bettee to try and see where the other foot of that rainbow is resting. The may be no crock of gold, but why not something even better?

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2018, 05:00:04 am »

Martin, why do you appear to believe that the existence of genres means that you are therefore forced into shooting to fit one? Surely, you have this back to front: you shoot whatever you feel is important or interesting to you, and then, after you have done that, it's uo to you or somebody else - should they feel the need - to put that work into some genre-related category. In no way does the post-shooting aspect, which may or may not come from, or matter to you, have any bearing on your direction unless you want it to have.

Rob

Fair enough. But then please explain what purpose exactly genres do perform? I can see no point to them when shooting and you are saying much the same thing. You mentioned stock in a previous post but we are not talking about stock here. And even if we were the stock system only existed because what else could be done before computers and #tags? Hash tags have largely supplanted genres as a way of searching for images. I worked in an agency in the days of film and big agencies had image libraries. Loads of images tucked away in rows of filing cabinets. Of course genres were useful in those days, but those days are done.

Ivo started this thread to discuss things other than genres actually but for various reasons we ended up on the subject and I think it needs to be resolved. My take is that strict adherence to genres when posting images stifles the forum and has contributed to loads of boring pointless stuff being posted for little reason other than it fits into a genre. Perhaps the genres are defined too narrowly? Perhaps we could allow urban and suburban into street and all stuff shot outside that as landscape. I don't think that's exactly right but Im sure you get my drift.

I think people on this forum are itching to have an intelligent and encouraging discussion about photography. I think Ivo's attempt with this thread reflects that. Lets not kill it with disdainful put downs and remarks designed to show our own cleverness and erudition. In no way is this last remark aimed at you Rob. I think your post quoted here was a fair question and it made me think about what I had posted. That is valuable to me.
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Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2018, 05:35:49 am »

Fair enough. 1. But then please explain what purpose exactly genres do perform? I can see no point to them when shooting and you are saying much the same thing. You mentioned stock in a previous post but we are not talking about stock here. And even if we were the stock system only existed because what else could be done before computers and #tags? Hash tags have largely supplanted genres as a way of searching for images. I worked in an agency in the days of film and big agencies had image libraries. Loads of images tucked away in rows of filing cabinets. Of course genres were useful in those days, but those days are done.

Ivo started this thread to discuss things other than genres actually but for various reasons we ended up on the subject and I think it needs to be resolved. 2. My take is that strict adherence to genres when posting images stifles the forum and has contributed to loads of boring pointless stuff being posted for little reason other than it fits into a genre. Perhaps the genres are defined too narrowly? Perhaps we could allow urban and suburban into street and all stuff shot outside that as landscape. I don't think that's exactly right but Im sure you get my drift.

I think people on this forum are itching to have an intelligent and encouraging discussion about photography. I think Ivo's attempt with this thread reflects that. Lets not kill it with disdainful put downs and remarks designed to show our own cleverness and erudition. In no way is this last remark aimed at you Rob. I think your post quoted here was a fair question and it made me think about what I had posted. That is valuable to me.

1. They peform the simple function of acting like signposts: they help viewers find the stuff that interests them without having to trawl through everything to discover their own bag. It's exactly as in a bookshop, where the interests are grouped together to simplify search and purchase.

We agree they have no pourpose within shooting unless they are part of the definition of the commission, the band within which you are being paid to shoot.

2. I don't see the form stifled by genres or, if you prefer, slots for the type of image being posted, which is just the other face of the function of (1) above.

The quality of postings depends on the quality of the work people are able to produce and to post. They are not genre limited, but talent and possibilities limited. In my own case, I can only post the finite number of pin-up shots that remain to me from those calendar days; I can no more afford to shoot more of that stuff at my own expense than I can buy a second home. As far as my fashion work goes, which was huge in volume compared to my calendar work, I can't post anything more than a print of a photograph I found in a box along with other stuff. Before I departed Britain for Spain I sold to clients whatever they wanted to have from my files, and destroyed the rest. Nobody knew the Internet was coming, that fashion snaps might become valuable for other people than the clients.

The other stuff I post, the majority of it, is neither street nor landscape. Where could I place it? Mostly, it fits easily within the wide expanse of WP. The rest of the Critique space does the same, but encourages critique, too, which WP does not.

The space exists, does the material?

Ivophoto

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Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2018, 06:07:04 am »

.

The space exists, does the material?

Stop ignoring or disqualify the material which is considered out of genre would open some eyes.

I’m following the ‘genre’ discussion with interest, tough I don’t have much to say about it, genres are what theye are, and there are of no great use to me.

About my background. I ‘m neither a typical engineer or a typical manager. It is my ability to step back and overlook from distance that makes me a good manager, (you have to believe me on my words )and I have sufficient engineering background to make my team not fooling around with me.
But I admit that my management background not necessarily help to free up my mind to innocently look into the world of less defined creations. At the other hand, my creative part is a strong plus in how I manage industrial projects.

The whole clock thing, or Barret stuff, is not part of my life. It is an intellectual finger-exercise to explore in abstraction. It widens my view on the photographic artistic world. And the traces it leaves in my head, unconsciously, complete my way of being who I am.

I thought it was that what you said to miss, here on Lula.
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Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2018, 06:54:39 am »

Stop ignoring or disqualify the material which is considered out of genre would open some eyes.

I’m following the ‘genre’ discussion with interest, tough I don’t have much to say about it, genres are what theye are, and there are of no great use to me.

About my background. I ‘m neither a typical engineer or a typical manager. It is my ability to step back and overlook from distance that makes me a good manager, (you have to believe me on my words )and I have sufficient engineering background to make my team not fooling around with me.
But I admit that my management background not necessarily help to free up my mind to innocently look into the world of less defined creations. At the other hand, my creative part is a strong plus in how I manage industrial projects.

The whole clock thing, or Barret stuff, is not part of my life. It is an intellectual finger-exercise to explore in abstraction. It widens my view on the photographic artistic world. And the traces it leaves in my head, unconsciously, complete my way of being who I am.

I thought it was that what you said to miss, here on Lula.


What I'd enjoy reading here in the CC is biography about those who post images. Within that, I'm sure it would be impossible for their thought processes to remain invisible, and their history. Quite honestly, I am as much interested in Leiter's or Frank's life as in the photographs which, without the background to them, are not as interesting to me. Ditto Vincent van Gogh. The book Lust for Life may or may not be accurate, but it opened my eyes to the man and his sad history and made the pictures look something other than just paintings by an anoymous, possibly not too skilled entity. Background knowledge brings another dimension. Same with David Bailey and Richard Avedon: book and video add so much understanding about ideas and the why of things happening in their pictures in the way that they do. When you consider Avedon's "West" series of portraits it makes much more sense when you are aware that he came to that place from being the world's top, and highest paid fashion photographer. So, what is that telling anyone who knows a bit about his history and his world of professional work? One helluva lot!

Discover the world of Helmut Newton; you can't imagine his work existing in the style that it does if you fail to know about his background as a Jew and the state of Germany and its wealthy Jewish residents. The Berlin ethos of his early childhood, the social norms of the time, all of that is reflected in the work, in the sophisticted tastes he shows, probably exaggerates, but had to know about in the first place in order to exploit later on as a man.

Yes, even the clash of ideas about the value or otherwise of genre classification is interesting, as is discovering that some feel its existemce a threat to their own output, whereas I never did, and looked upon genre as nothing more than an index file for the later, easy finding of things. I couldn't imagine that unless they had to, to fit a commercial brief, people would look upon genre as permission to shoot or not to shoot! Surely, as amateur, the feedom is there to shoot whatever turns you on? That's how I use my retirement freedom.

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2018, 07:07:13 am »

Keep the genres as is and then loads of images won’t get posted is my opinion. Who cares. Lots of other places to post pictures I suppose. LuLa doesn’t need the images I’m sure. Things can carry on like they are and if that’s what majority want then so be it.
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KLaban

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2018, 08:25:43 am »

The Street Showcase is a case in point, ultimately undone by the very people who pushed for it's existence. Intransigence: an overriding belief that it was their way or no way. OCD in action.

This place should be scented with sweet pheromones, not reek of mouldy filing cabinets.   

Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2018, 08:45:35 am »

The Street Showcase is a case in point, ultimately undone by the very people who pushed for it's existence. Intransigence: an overriding belief that it was their way or no way. OCD in action.

This place should be scented with sweet pheromones, not reek of mouldy filing cabinets.

I disagree, Keith.

Its problem as I see it, was that few do steet of any kind, beyond espousing the belief that if it's shot in a street, then, by definition, it's street. Which is akin to believing that if you make a selfie on a cruise boat you're doing marine photography, a concept that would drive any boat broker into his grave. You see the point and the problem.

The filing cabinets are as fresh or otherwise as the material within them. If LuLa readers are unable or not interested enough (a real consideration and possibility) to supply relevant material, then that's not the fault of others. The hoped for types of material are easy to place: there is the one where people can place "street art" which is best explained by reference to Leiter, "Street street" which you can reference by looking at a zillion people like Winogrand, Arbus (to an extent), Joel Meyerowitz and on and on. Anyone able to post here is able to look those people up via Dr Google and understand what street, the genre, actually is. It's not some arbitrary decision made up here on LuLa: it predates most of us.

Of course, if it makes anyone happy, there is nothing to preclude a section of street that fits the "if on a street, then it's street" concept. Somebody's pet pooch peeing against a lamp post would be just dandy.

;-)
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