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Author Topic: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny  (Read 16916 times)

Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2018, 04:04:24 am »

Thank you for sharing this Amolitor.

This is effectively the process that helps me to understand but more important to do things with pictures. Yours last words says a lot.

Thanks again.

Last year, in the FOMU (photo museum Antwerp) I visited an exhibit about US multi nationals. Initially I didn’t find my way in the exposition. Images, articles, a lot of commercial photography.
And then a found the headlines. It was about how multinational are financed, the effect of this on local markets as another line it was explained how publicity is used to influence the buyers. And how a ‘need’ is created. Examples where given how Monsanto changed to food chain with food engineering. How Dupont used backwards engineering to increase sales by making a product (nylon stockings) not to good.
And at the end it was explained how all this was exported to Europe. (World Expo 58) and how it boosted the European continent. As a side line the effects of consumption industrie and engineered food came were discussed.

Photography was direct and indirect the basis of this exhibit, but there was so much more.
Text, extracts from historical contracts, original publicity from the fifties, video, it made a complete experience.

I photograph with projects like this in mind. I keep a number of broad themes in mind and shoot things or situations that could be useful.

P.e. I’m working on a series about the proliferation of Coca Cola.
I ‘m shooting all the phases of huge infra works who are changing my town of birth. These pictures would be laughed away here on Lula, but I’m sure that it will gain relevance over the decades to come.
Etc


Photography as a means not a goal.

....


That, my friend, says and explains everything, including my own position today.

Photography, without a purpose, and that purpose has to be more than a self-referential excuse to justify a basic interest in images, is what is essential for any long-term interest and dedication.

You have your current socio-political stance and interest that bears you and your photography, whereas I had my own version in different kinds of commercial work. For each of us, it is and was something greater than just the photography: it is/was about the purpose.

My sense and purpose for and with it has vanished into history, leaving only the skills, which are of the same value to me as those of a plumber with no further pipes to fix: redundancy. That is not a matter of personal optimism or pessimism, which are irrelevant: it's cold fact.

32BT

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2018, 04:25:47 am »


That, my friend, says and explains everything, including my own position today.

Photography, without a purpose, and that purpose has to be more than a self-referential excuse to justify a basic interest in images, is what is essential for any long-term interest and dedication.

You have your current socio-political stance and interest that bears you and your photography, whereas I had my own version in different kinds of commercial work. For each of us, it is and was something greater than just the photography: it is/was about the purpose.

My sense and purpose for and with it has vanished into history, leaving only the skills, which are of the same value to me as those of a plumber with no further pipes to fix: redundancy. That is not a matter of personal optimism or pessimism, which are irrelevant: it's cold fact.

The difference between the plumber and the artist though, is that the pipes of the former generally hide behind cabinets. Some of your "contemplative" work (if you can forgive me my choice of words here) has enough relevance to be on display in a local gallery.
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KLaban

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #162 on: November 12, 2018, 04:38:26 am »


That, my friend, says and explains everything, including my own position today.

Photography, without a purpose, and that purpose has to be more than a self-referential excuse to justify a basic interest in images, is what is essential for any long-term interest and dedication.

You have your current socio-political stance and interest that bears you and your photography, whereas I had my own version in different kinds of commercial work. For each of us, it is and was something greater than just the photography: it is/was about the purpose.

My sense and purpose for and with it has vanished into history, leaving only the skills, which are of the same value to me as those of a plumber with no further pipes to fix: redundancy. That is not a matter of personal optimism or pessimism, which are irrelevant: it's cold fact.

And that, my friend, we understand. But does rehashing the same mantra over and over again here on LuLa help you or us?

Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2018, 05:03:49 am »


That, my friend, says and explains everything, including my own position today.

Photography, without a purpose, and that purpose has to be more than a self-referential excuse to justify a basic interest in images, is what is essential for any long-term interest and dedication.

You have your current socio-political stance and interest that bears you and your photography, whereas I had my own version in different kinds of commercial work. For each of us, it is and was something greater than just the photography: it is/was about the purpose.

My sense and purpose for and with it has vanished into history, leaving only the skills, which are of the same value to me as those of a plumber with no further pipes to fix: redundancy. That is not a matter of personal optimism or pessimism, which are irrelevant: it's cold fact.

And that, Rob, brings us to the situation we mutually knows how we look at it. For me, that’s a relief.

I very understand your situation, I just wonder if there’s nothing that could revitalize your photographic appetite.
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Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #164 on: November 12, 2018, 05:04:35 am »

The difference between the plumber and the artist though, is that the pipes of the former generally hide behind cabinets. Some of your "contemplative" work (if you can forgive me my choice of words here) has enough relevance to be on display in a local gallery.
+1
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Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2018, 07:03:52 am »

And that, my friend, we understand. But does rehashing the same mantra over and over again here on LuLa help you or us?


When it comes down to my answering or not answering posts, I feel obliged to call it as I see it, not as a wider public may wish or imagine it might be.

There's obviously no need to read anything at all should it not suit a specif temperament.

:-)

Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #166 on: November 12, 2018, 07:43:19 am »

The difference between the plumber and the artist though, is that the pipes of the former generally hide behind cabinets. Some of your "contemplative" work (if you can forgive me my choice of words here) has enough relevance to be on display in a local gallery.


Hi Oscar, the terminology suits me perfectly. I could enter into a sort of treatise on where in the process the contemplation comes into play, but as you will have figured, that's a bit dangerous to do.

I thought of the gallery thing about nine years ago - more or less - and bought myself a nice HP printer that gave me great A3+ black/whites. Took the stuff to a local gallery which was enthusiastic, and then the whole thing slipped away into silence after having been offered a slot a few months later on. Just as well my nose was still sensitive and I didn't rush to blow about €1200 on frames: I met the woman on the street, and she told me they were not doing new shows... which turned out to be a straight lie: they were not doing photographic shows.

Academic, though: HP abandoned the printer. I am not replacing it.

RSL

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #167 on: November 12, 2018, 09:53:26 am »

After deep and extensive reflection on the ideas in Jean-Claude’s clock categorizations, I’ve come to the conclusion that his clock is an obvious way to eliminate genres, which seem to discomfit a number of LuLaers, especially those who are convinced they need to select a genre before they proceed to shoot.

Instead of “Photojournalism” for instance, we can call war reportage “3:12.” General photojournalism could adopt the term “2:45,” making clear that it’s more universal. Electoral coverage, on the other hand, could become “2:55:12,” pinning down the exact intention of the photographer. Coverage of a riot probably could be placed in “2:55:13,” resulting in more specificity. Instead of the nasty genre “street,” we could identify HCB’s “Behind the Gare Saint-Lazare” as a “9:48,” making clear the distinction between it and Henri’s “Boy Carrying Wine Bottles,” which would instantly be recognizable as a “6:24.”

This approach should make everything clear, even to the casual observer of photographs who never grasped the idea of genres such as photojournalism, landscape, or street. After all, who wouldn’t realize immediately that a picture of a land-mine explosion is a 3:12:06?”

Let’s hear it for Jean-Claude. He’s solved a problem with which humanity has been struggling ever since Niépce started the whole argument in 1826.
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Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #168 on: November 12, 2018, 10:10:23 am »

This reminds me - I'm not sure why, but being sure was never a given for me - of the worries that surrounded the advent of the year 2000.

Turned out that the same old same old was the way it was gonna be. Which was quite reassuring for a while. Then, this morning, on Sky News, there was a piece on the advent of Alzheimer's thingy which, apparently, can be governed or predicted, not so much by the phases of the Moon but by the pressure of the blood inside the veins inside (where they would be, of course) the neck.

I have often felt discomfort around the neck area when carrying a camera suspended there from a strap - a kind of pressure that makes me feel weak: could it be that the weight is damagng the free flow of blood inside those veins and thus providing a time bomb of sorts? One of my olde heroes, Barry Lategan, went off the rails a while ago, but I don't know if he used neckstraps or assistants. Which means that perhaps assistants have some surprises to look forward to as they age a little bit. Ah Photography, you devious bitch, you!

;-)

Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #169 on: November 12, 2018, 10:51:40 am »

After deep and extensive reflection on the ideas in Jean-Claude’s clock categorizations, I’ve come to the conclusion that his clock is an obvious way to eliminate genres, which seem to discomfit a number of LuLaers, especially those who are convinced they need to select a genre before they proceed to shoot.

Instead of “Photojournalism” for instance, we can call war reportage “3:12.” General photojournalism could adopt the term “2:45,” making clear that it’s more universal. Electoral coverage, on the other hand, could become “2:55:12,” pinning down the exact intention of the photographer. Coverage of a riot probably could be placed in “2:55:13,” resulting in more specificity. Instead of the nasty genre “street,” we could identify HCB’s “Behind the Gare Saint-Lazare” as a “9:48,” making clear the distinction between it and Henri’s “Boy Carrying Wine Bottles,” which would instantly be recognizable as a “6:24.”

This approach should make everything clear, even to the casual observer of photographs who never grasped the idea of genres such as photojournalism, landscape, or street. After all, who wouldn’t realize immediately that a picture of a land-mine explosion is a 3:12:06?”

Let’s hear it for Jean-Claude. He’s solved a problem with which humanity has been struggling ever since Niépce started the whole argument in 1826.

Whatever
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RSL

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #170 on: November 12, 2018, 10:57:25 am »

Whatever

In other words you agree, Ivo?
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Ivophoto

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #171 on: November 12, 2018, 11:00:05 am »

In other words you agree, Ivo?

In other words:

Whatever
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amolitor

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #172 on: November 12, 2018, 01:32:16 pm »

Russ, we are all perfectly aware that this thread makes you feel uncomfortable. While I sympathize, I cannot do more than suggest that you stop reading it.
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amolitor

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #173 on: November 12, 2018, 03:11:22 pm »

Rob,  I understand your need for an underlying motive.

For many years, simply "look for the good pictures, print them, stick them on my wall" was a good enough purpose, a good enough plan of action. It still serves many people on LuLa perfectly well, and in a way I am a little jealous of them.

My current plan is to take some pictures and write some words and take some more pictures, more words and so on, and sometimes it comes together. And then I make a book, 1 or 2 or 20 copies. And sometimes I give those away to people who will like them, or I leave them in a coffee shop, or (very very rarely) I sell one. Is my plan better than the "stick it on a wall" plan? Not in the least. None of it matters in the long run anyways, does it? We'll all be dead in a few decades, and a few decades after that everyone who ever knew us will be dead.

My plan works for me though.

A common thread through most plans for photography, though, is one of communication. Some people may photograph purely for themselves, and far be it from  me to judge them. Most, I think, have some notion of communicating something to something, at least every now and then.

It is precisely there that things like Lemagny's Clock gains some usefulness. If you want to communicate something with words well, certainly you ought to have read a lot. But in addition, having some models in  mind will hurt you not at all. Whether you have read any magical realism or not, knowing that it exists gives you access to another tool. Having some little notion of the taxonomy of poems won't hurt you either. There are infinitely many ways to dissect the world of the written word, to be sure. Having some grasp of some of them gives you a better, broader, sense of the tools in the box when it comes time to tell your own story, communicate your own ideas.

You might well consider the Clock to be balderdash, or to be too limited, too narrow. But in thinking that through you expand and refine your own ideas about how photographs might communicate. You might, ever so slightly, become a better communicator-with-pictures.

There is probably a school of thought (perhaps even right here in LuLa) that says you need only look at a lot of pictures, and you'll learn all you need to know. I beg to differ. You cannot merely read poems and deduce all there is to know about rhyme and consonance and meter and symbolism. You can probably work out a lot of it, with great effort, but you will certainly miss a lot of it. On the other hand, a couple of hours with a book about poetry will lay the whole thing bare, and you will be a better poet for it.

You might as well attempt to become an engine mechanic by attending a lot of motorsports events.

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elliot_n

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #174 on: November 12, 2018, 03:59:07 pm »

Is there anything specifically photographic about Lemagny's clock? It seems to me that it could be applied to painting, cinema, literature...
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amolitor

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #175 on: November 12, 2018, 05:51:56 pm »

Good question, elliot.

Certainly the real/surreal spectrum is practically universal in any expressive medium. The distinction between the medium and the message, as it were, isn't quite as universal, but it's pretty common.


Is there something photographic about combining the two in a single system? I dunno. Worth a noodle though, isn't it?
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Rob C

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #176 on: November 12, 2018, 06:19:27 pm »

Rob,  I understand your need for an underlying motive.

For many years, simply "look for the good pictures, print them, stick them on my wall" was a good enough purpose, a good enough plan of action. It still serves many people on LuLa perfectly well, and in a way I am a little jealous of them.

My current plan is to take some pictures and write some words and take some more pictures, more words and so on, and sometimes it comes together. And then I make a book, 1 or 2 or 20 copies. And sometimes I give those away to people who will like them, or I leave them in a coffee shop, or (very very rarely) I sell one. Is my plan better than the "stick it on a wall" plan? Not in the least. None of it matters in the long run anyways, does it? We'll all be dead in a few decades, and a few decades after that everyone who ever knew us will be dead.

My plan works for me though.

A common thread through most plans for photography, though, is one of communication. Some people may photograph purely for themselves, and far be it from  me to judge them. Most, I think, have some notion of communicating something to something, at least every now and then.

It is precisely there that things like Lemagny's Clock gains some usefulness. If you want to communicate something with words well, certainly you ought to have read a lot. But in addition, having some models in  mind will hurt you not at all. Whether you have read any magical realism or not, knowing that it exists gives you access to another tool. Having some little notion of the taxonomy of poems won't hurt you either. There are infinitely many ways to dissect the world of the written word, to be sure. Having some grasp of some of them gives you a better, broader, sense of the tools in the box when it comes time to tell your own story, communicate your own ideas.

You might well consider the Clock to be balderdash, or to be too limited, too narrow. But in thinking that through you expand and refine your own ideas about how photographs might communicate. You might, ever so slightly, become a better communicator-with-pictures.

There is probably a school of thought (perhaps even right here in LuLa) that says you need only look at a lot of pictures, and you'll learn all you need to know. I beg to differ. You cannot merely read poems and deduce all there is to know about rhyme and consonance and meter and symbolism. You can probably work out a lot of it, with great effort, but you will certainly miss a lot of it. On the other hand, a couple of hours with a book about poetry will lay the whole thing bare, and you will be a better poet for it.

You might as well attempt to become an engine mechanic by attending a lot of motorsports events.


Andrew, I don't buy into this because photography isn't those other, possily deeper arts: photography, for me, has two levels: the mechanical one where skills are about technique with camera and light manipulation - such as for real architectural photography - in contrast to architectural atmospherics, where the skill is all visual, in recognizing and catching mood on the fly. That's the instinctive photography that I like, draws me in and was all I ever wanted to be able to do.

This was especially evident at the more artsy edges of fashion photography where, to name but a few, people like Sarah Moon, Deborah Turbeville, Harri Peccinotti, Hans Feurer operate(ed).  On the other side of the genre, I think that photography with the advent of digital has, rather than extend the boundaries, actually turned around and gone the other way, back to the styles of the old guys with their 4x5 etc. where every stitch counts. That's fashion: in today, out tomorow and back up and in like Lazarus the day after that.

It's all pretty superficial and always for the moment, with no real pretentions to anything deeper. And that's one of the leading branches of photography. As for the rest - you get war junkies out in the life/death wars, and the faux ones out on the streets; you get the folks who chastise their bodies by climbing mountains or othewise flagellate themselves by camping out in deserts. They come home with what? Photographs. So? And that's my point: the snaps make an exhibition or, with luck, a book, and once seen that's about all anyone's interest will take. But, if you consider the other arts such as poetry and music, they touch the same hearts for as long as they can beat. Very, very few photographs have had that power over me, but several photographers do because of the body of work, which simply makes them artists and not one-hit wonders.

That power has almost nothing to do with anything they learned in schools, but everything to do with how they see and dream.

I always advocate looking at all the photographs that you can, if you are really keen enough on photography, not to copy a single one, but to discover yourself therein, find your bag, what turns you on, and then you'll have a pretty good idea of what you may want to do. All photography is not created equal for the same person.

That said and pondered, it still comes down to the fact that photography is always a minor player. Sure, some make pots of money out of galleries, but money alone doesn't make the stuff any the more wonderful, just collectible.

RSL

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #177 on: November 12, 2018, 07:55:42 pm »

Russ, we are all perfectly aware that this thread makes you feel uncomfortable. While I sympathize, I cannot do more than suggest that you stop reading it.

No, Andrew. It doesn't make me uncomfortable. It makes me ROTFL. It's a silly enough idea that it's worth having some fun with it. Sorry you can't see that.
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amolitor

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Re: Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #178 on: November 12, 2018, 08:05:51 pm »

It is possible, Rob, that we see more eye to eye than I  imagined, although we invariably use different words.

I think that's why I have started using more words. Gene Smith's Minamata makes me weep at a certain point, and I think it is fair to say that neither the words nor the pictures would do it. The pictures are just a man sitting on a table cross legged, looking at another man, who is looking back. But the pictures make the scene real, and it is that real historicity that makes makes me weep.
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Ivophoto

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Clock of Jean-Claude Lemagny
« Reply #179 on: November 13, 2018, 02:39:09 am »

Is there anything specifically photographic about Lemagny's clock? It seems to me that it could be applied to painting, cinema, literature...

Yes.

On the other hand, I’m not sure if a painting can cover the clock as photo can.
Maybe 200 years ago, when some paintings also had that pure functional function and could fit that part of the clock. Nowadays a painting is per definition a piece d’art on its own. However, maybe graffiti does have it’s own merits.

Consider the triptych in a cathedral. The backside of the door panels are painted monochrome. Today, the works are all opened to expose the inner work. But in the  period of making, on normal days the panels were closed and the whole church was somber and dark.
On special days such as eastern or Pentecost some triptych were opened to give the church a particular lustre. Those paintings were functional, maybe more than a piece of art and could be assessed to belong on another quadrant as they would be today.

Another example:

In the heydays of catholic clericalism, paintings and statues served a political purpose. Such a painting would be in that time on another quadrant as today.
Same can be said about the Stalinist art, National socialist art, Roman art, rich decoration of Egypt crypt, etc etc.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 03:28:41 am by Ivophoto »
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