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Author Topic: considering MF jump for large format portraiture  (Read 4500 times)

billthecat

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2018, 08:36:53 pm »

I also enjoy the 645D images. I'm thinking you might like Leaf color. A used Leaf Credo 80MP Digital back might be good for you. I saw a couple on Ebay today. The new medium format mirrorless cameras might be small and easy to use but there is something nice about the old CCD backs. And the Credo 80 is also a larger 53.7 x 40.3 mm sensor.

Bill
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 08:50:26 am by billthecat »
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StoryinPictures

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 01:28:38 am »

I agree with your thoughts. my problem is that I have three real contenders, they are all $350/week to rent with no lens. that is one heck of a trial budget (1/5-1/8th the cost of any of the cameras)....I could literally fly to BH for less. obviously can't try for a week at BH but ouch, they're pricey to rent.

So, about renting....

I would probably narrow the field a bit more. I would probably choose my best contender and rent that.

Handling at a store is worth a lot. Downloading some sample RAW files can teach you a lot when you put them through your process.  For me, looking at digital images helps me eliminate lenses which don't render in a pleasing way.  Adding up the total dollar cost of ownership can be useful (camera, lenses desired, at least one extra battery).  Adding up the total volume and weight can be useful. Did I mention handling in the store (hard to say that too often).  This set of exercises taken seriously will eliminate contenders or, at least, help prioritize.

I had no trouble getting opportunities to handle all these cameras and take home images I had exposed on my own card at the local store and a couple events.

Do you need a week to test?  I lined up dozens of subjects over a weekend rental (I set up a backdrop at a historical reenactment event one day and brought in a bunch of models into the studio for test shoots the next day--while I was photographing one, the makeup artist was getting the next one ready).  I also went to a nighttime graduation of a firefighting school (water and fire at night!). 

It took some doing to set this up, but simply renting for a week without such pre-rental legwork is likely to end up with less testing, imo.

And talk with your local store.  My store will take the rental price off of the purchase price.

To my eye, it looks like Pentax has not been serious enough about MF and has failed to deliver on promised developments. Fuji has been very active with firmware updates, an aggressive lens development path including a roadmap, a clear plan for camera development.  Pentax might pick up the ball. Or might not. But Fuji keeps moving the ball forward, as they have done with the X series.

From usability as a camera, Fuji has a well developed interface which is an effective transplant of the system they developed through many generations of the Fuji X line (all the major firmware updates are like a new generation of cameras for most players.)

Hasselblad has an unclear future in MF and is doing a lot of stumbling.

Phase has a strong track record and, like Fuji, keeps at it in an active way.  Big. Heavy. Expensive.  IQ advantage.

To my view, I would get it down to Phase and Fuji.  I would check my budget, which would eliminate Phase for some. I would check how much I want a handy, portable camera (Fuji) against my desire for that last 3% of IQ. 

For me, Fuji is an easy winner.  You have to clarify your priorities against the available options to find your winner, naturally.

In short, if you do your homework, you can probably get by with a single camera with a weekend rental and your dealer is likely to take it off your purchase :)
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BobShaw

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 02:56:10 am »

Hasselblad has an unclear future in MF and is doing a lot of stumbling.
Phase has a strong track record and, like Fuji, keeps at it in an active way.  Big. Heavy. Expensive.  IQ advantage.
Serious? Hasselblad dealers are popping up everywhere in Sydney. They compete price wise with top end Canon and Nikon. Even the Phase One dealer starting selling them before they went broke. The cameras and new lenses are pre-ordered.

Phase has a strong track record but it is now downhill. Unless they come out with a sub $10K camera I think they are doomed. They are big heavy expensive boxes that will have little demand.
Fuji makes great cameras traditionally but at this moment lacks the professional features that Hasselblad has.
Also there is a path for Hasselblad users using H or even V series to the X (and as soon as you hold one you want one.) If you need big then you can still get the H6. Most don't but if you do then the X1D is a great backup camera. Plus they have the A6 aerial photography line.

Go and try each.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 04:00:16 am by BobShaw »
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cgarnerhome

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 07:17:38 am »

I keep hearing that Phase is doomed - not just from you Bob so I don't mean to single you out.  It usually comes from people that haven’t shot the IQ3 100 and/or lack insight into their financials. Since none of us have insight into their financials, I don’t understand why people want to make these dire predictions.  I wouldn’t make statements about Hasselblad since I also lack insight into their financials.  I can only speculate that Fuji is well positioned to gain significant market share given their stated product development roadmap.  I would further speculate that Hasselblad will respond and Phase will continue to build a strong position in a segment where people demand the absolute best image quality and product support.  I would also speculate that the MFD market will expand greatly over the coming years and this rising tide may lift all boats.  Sometimes it seems people believe the market is not big enough for three competitors – or more.  Today it certainly seems that Fuji is in a position to be the market share leader but that doesn’t mean others can’t exist and even thrive in profitable segments.

MichaelEzra

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2018, 08:07:31 am »

I have both 645z and Z7.. may be I should make a through test:) From my initial quick look, either camera can deliver a stunning large scale portrait.
645z would impress clients more... it feels and looks more substantial. Z7 has substantially less camera shake with IBIS and EFCS, one can serve as a backup to another.
Get both, it will fit your budget:)

Fuji MF seems like a winner, considering more promising looking future. Basically, investing into more expensive Fuji lenses may pay off better when upgrading camera later on.

I walked into the Pentax booth on Photo Plus - they were selling 645z at 5K. There is no insight on any development of any future Pentax MF.
However, realistically... 645z image quality is more than sufficient, and in 10 years it will still be sufficient for studio portraits. Lenses are a bargain and superb. Could get two 645z-s:)

Looking at developments in Topaz AI Gigapixel, 51 MP sharp capture of 3/4 height portrait can be outputted in *any* desired size.

With that, investing into a much faster computer system and better retouching would have more impact on the workflow and the output than a more expensive camera.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 10:04:58 am by MichaelEzra »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2018, 08:29:37 am »

I keep hearing that Phase is doomed - not just from you Bob so I don't mean to single you out.  It usually comes from people that haven’t shot the IQ3 100 and/or lack insight into their financials. Since none of us have insight into their financials, I don’t understand why people want to make these dire predictions.  I wouldn’t make statements about Hasselblad since I also lack insight into their financials.  I can only speculate that Fuji is well positioned to gain significant market share given their stated product development roadmap.  I would further speculate that Hasselblad will respond and Phase will continue to build a strong position in a segment where people demand the absolute best image quality and product support.  I would also speculate that the MFD market will expand greatly over the coming years and this rising tide may lift all boats.  Sometimes it seems people believe the market is not big enough for three competitors – or more.  Today it certainly seems that Fuji is in a position to be the market share leader but that doesn’t mean others can’t exist and even thrive in profitable segments.

Both Hasselblad and Phase One disclose their annual financials publicly. You can look them up on websites like prof.dk and allabolag.se; use a chrome browser for automatic language translation.

Phase One has been profitable and in a strong financial position every year since 2008. Their numbers are among the best in the industry (much of which really suffered through a decade where consumers switched from point and shoots to phones). Yet, every year there is at least one doom-and-gloom thread about how they are in “trouble”. It’s honesty quite surreal.

As we don’t sell Hasselblad I won’t comment on their financials over the last decade.

Most of the other camera companies are far more opaque since, for most, their camera sales are a small minortiy of the corporate entity, and their high-end cameras are often a minority’s if their total camera sales.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 08:44:58 am by Doug Peterson »
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cgarnerhome

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2018, 08:41:45 am »

Your point is well taken Doug.

BJL

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considering MF jump – beware unbalanced price comparisons between formats
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2018, 01:05:42 pm »

... Hasselblad ... They compete price wise with top end Canon and Nikon.
The new 44x33 pricing is a big step forward, but such price comparisons between "least expensive in a larger format vs most expensive in a smaller format" are usually irrelevant, due to important features differences, most often related to suitability for high speed action shooting. The only 35mm format cameras (excluding Leica!) that cost close to as much as any 44x33mm format camera have big advantages in features like frame rate, AF/AE sophistication, and ruggedness. If those do not matter (likely for most potential MF buyers) because the lower frame rates (3fps) and such of the 44x33 cameras are fine, then there are far less expensive 35mm format options that are also fine as far as those "non-sensor size" features; starting at about $2000 (USA pricing). If instead those "fast action" abilities do matter, then no current 44x33 camera is a substitute; they serve different markets.

So the sensor upsizing in reality about triples the price.

(Much the same is true when people compare the high-end options in APS-C and MFT (with advantages such as high frame rates, excellent video features, telephoto and macro advantages from higher resolution in lp/mm) to the least expensive 35mm format models, and declare nonsensically that no camera in those smaller mainstream formats should cost as much as the cheapest 35mm format model.)
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BobShaw

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Re: considering MF jump
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 04:12:32 pm »

price comparisons between "least expensive in a larger format vs most expensive in a smaller format" are usually irrelevant, due to important features differences,
Absolutely agree, that is why the comparison is limited to price only.
You would buy the two for completely different reasons.
You would buys  a Canon !Dx if you were a sports photographer whereas a medium format is useless for sport, except maybe chess. You buy a medium format for portrait, fashion, landscape and pretty much anything except sport or feathered birds.

You would probably buy a Canon 5D series for those things in the 35mm world. However the 5D is a lesser build quality and colour accuracy than the 1D and medium format is far better than 35mm. Once you try medium format (even an old one) you won't use the 35mm again. I have had two 5Ds and the eight year old H3D was far better. X1D is another step whereas the H5D or H6D was out of reach.

The point was that a few years ago medium format digital was cost prohibitive unless you were at the extreme high end, being around $50,000. Regardless of what business you are in, price is an issue.
Now they are in the reach of any serious photographer for not a lot more than 35mm.
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BJL

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 04:46:55 pm »

BobShaw,

    agreed, except that in comparison to a 44x33 format EVF camera (without even PDAF so far) my 35mm format options would also start with the Sony A7R Mk 2 or Nikon Z6 or Canon EOS-R, not just the 5D Mk 4, so as I said starting at about US$2000.

P. S. 44x33 format has been available at under US$10,000 for some years with the Pentax 645Z and 645D before it back in 2010; that $50,000 is the high end for 54x40 format, which is not what we are looking at here. So the downward price trend is not nearly that steep.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 04:53:38 pm by BJL »
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Dan Wells

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2018, 06:44:04 pm »

MichaelEzra, would you be willing to post some comparison shots between the Z7 and 645z? I think that's a real question that many people are asking, whether the venerable 50 MP 33x44mm sensor has any real advantage over a (3-4 years newer) 24x36mm sensor with almost the same resolution.

mstevensphoto, how much did you play with the Nikon color? Those raw files have a lot of latitude (and you can probably come up with a preset or filter you like so you don't have to mess with every image individually). That said, Fuji really does do lovely color! A major advantage for them...

The GFX 100 will presumably offer all the resolution in the world, with great Fuji color, for not so much more than your budget (they're saying $10K for the body, but Fuji is in love with rebates, and will probably more or less throw in a lens relatively quickly)... Is it worth waiting for?

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mstevensphoto

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2018, 10:02:35 pm »


Fuji makes great cameras traditionally but at this moment lacks the professional features that Hasselblad has.


I'm going to single in on this and ask for more. according to many reviews the fuji autofocus is majorly lacking (this is a massive deal breaker for me as I'm dependent on AF) - what other features are lacking in your mind?

I believe Hasselblad has always made a nice camera and I believe it has always been priced way way way more than it needed to pay for the name on it. Even in the days of film there was nothing that a Hassy had over my Mamiya except name and price.
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mstevensphoto

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2018, 10:10:31 pm »

MichaelEzra, would you be willing to post some comparison shots between the Z7 and 645z? I think that's a real question that many people are asking, whether the venerable 50 MP 33x44mm sensor has any real advantage over a (3-4 years newer) 24x36mm sensor with almost the same resolution.


I'd really be interested in this too, especially as portraits and especially for that hard-to-capture "feel" of the bigger system.

re: Nikon color - I rented the 850 for an extensive classic car shoot where the final output was no smaller than 24x24 and as big as 40x60 - ultimately I really had a hard time telling the difference vs my 5d mk iii except that I'm used to the canon color. I'm a canon shooter by virtue of being fully invested in canon glass, not brand loyalty. at this point a change in the full multi lens kit would be painful.

I'm not sure there's any reason for me to wait for the fuji 100 series, 50mp really will do me quite nicely. 100mp files sound like a management problem my current computing power might not be ready for.
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MichaelEzra

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2018, 10:44:47 pm »

I'd be happy to do the test, just need a willing subject:) If anyone would like to stop by my studio in NYC and pose, send a PM.

Without a human subject, I could shoot a landscape scene, which, although far from a portrait, may be of its own interest. Another option, I have a wig on a mannequin head (no eyes, but real hair). This can offer better control on reproducing the composition and framing and let everyone pixel peep on the same piece of hair.

I could compare, let's say:
645z at F11 with 75mm FA F2.8 (eq. 60mm FF) / 150mm FA F2.8 (eq. 120mm FF) to
Z7    at F9  with Nikon 24-70 F4 S (at 60mm) / Nikon 60mm G / Tamron 70-200mm G2 (at 120mm)
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mstevensphoto

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2018, 10:47:53 pm »

I just finished a test of that very sort (shooting film) :)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpFdIOfB7n1/
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MichaelEzra

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2018, 10:58:18 pm »

Just found this video comparing 645z with 55mm F2.8 with D850 (with unfortunately) Nikon 24-120:
https://youtu.be/uUEfT0HtWyQ

« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 11:10:28 pm by MichaelEzra »
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BobShaw

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2018, 02:15:01 am »

I'm going to single in on this and ask for more. according to many reviews the fuji autofocus is majorly lacking (this is a massive deal breaker for me as I'm dependent on AF) - what other features are lacking in your mind?
I can only form an opinion from owners on what is missing on the Fuji. There are plenty of comments on this forum.
What the Hasselblad X1D has is full Wifi remote for landscape and interior work and good tethering to MBP plus iPad which is useful for clients. It also has very good raw processing software which incorporates camera profiling and scene calibration.
None of my lenses autofocus so I can't comment on that. It has focus peaking though which is great. Hopefully an XCD lens is not too far away.
I will say that my first Hasselblad was 8 years old and was a solid workhorse. I don't think you could get much value from an 8 year old 35mm digital. People still use a Hasselblad V series, but I am not sure why.

As for other things like Mamiya, Pentax etc. Pentax has been around for a long while yes, but I have never regarded it in the same category as Phase or Hasselblad.
I had several Mamiyas. The RZ67 was a great camera for film but useless for digital.
The Mamiya AFD line I always regarded as a clunky box and was glad to swap it for an H1 with Phase back, which was cheaper than trying to make it digital anyway. When I went to the full Hasselblad H3D I realised the advantages of the integrated solution though.
Cheers.
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Rob C

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2018, 05:46:44 am »

Paintings like this show up in large estates in the U.K., no?

Different world and time; and huge halls.

Rob

Dan Wells

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2018, 12:03:39 pm »

The landscape would be very interesting...
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Rand47

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Re: considering MF jump for large format portraiture
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2018, 12:10:28 pm »

Quote
I'm going to single in on this and ask for more. according to many reviews the fuji autofocus is majorly lacking (this is a massive deal breaker for me as I'm dependent on AF) - what other features are lacking in your mind?

Most reviews are comparing the GFX's AF system with dSLR performance.  "Majorly lacking" as I read it, means roughly that you can't shoot sports and other action subject very well (if at all) with the GFX AF system.  My response to those reviews is, "Well Duh!"  The reviews generally go on to say that while it isn't very good for shooting birds in flight, it tends to be deadly accurate on relatively static subjects.  To that I say, "Well, Duh!"

Rand
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