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Author Topic: Yellows printing with Amber shift  (Read 960 times)

Pete JF

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Yellows printing with Amber shift
« on: November 03, 2018, 02:04:36 pm »

Hi all,

I'm on a calibrated NEC PA272w calibrated with Spectraview II, printing to an Epson P800, prints lit with a Hyperikon 3000k bulb, pretty well balanced to my screen value.

I'm in Lightroom and using Epson 'Premium Photo Paper Glossy' the 'F' surface version , heavy base sheet..also using the Epson profile for this paper.

A sky in an image I'm working has some subtle but definite yellows..these are not sunset type saturated yellows..

The yellows are shifting towards Amber..can't seem to shake it..
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howardm

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2018, 02:15:30 pm »

the 272 is calibrated to *what* values?  There is no such thing 'calibrated' w/o knowing what standard you're calibrating to.  My hunch is that your cal target for temp is too high (causing you to add slightly too much yellow-ish such that viewing under 3000 is too yellow/amber).

Pete JF

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2018, 02:31:12 pm »

thanks Howard..here are the specs on the current profile..I have a 4k bulb somewhere..I'll compare.

White Point = D50
Gamma = 1.80
Intensity = 80.0 cd/m2
Contrast ratio = Monitor default
Color Gamut = Native (full)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 02:43:19 pm by Pete JF »
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Pete JF

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2018, 02:51:17 pm »

Just swapped out for a 4k bulb of same brand (Hyperikon)

Not even close to my screen version in any way..

The 3k bulb represented everything pretty much properly except for the yellows in the sky..the 4k is way off all over the place.
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digitaldog

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2018, 02:59:30 pm »

The yellows are shifting towards Amber..can't seem to shake it..
Let's see if it's an image specific issue or not by printing a color reference image with Relative and Perceptual rendering that contains yellows (among others):
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Gamut_Test_File_Flat.tif
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
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howardm

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2018, 03:07:43 pm »

thanks Howard..here are the specs on the current profile..I have a 4k bulb somewhere..I'll compare.

White Point = D50
Gamma = 1.80
Intensity = 80.0 cd/m2
Contrast ratio = Monitor default
Color Gamut = Native (full)

Not that it helps in this particular case (and of course Andrew is correct in narrowing down the problem) but I also have a 272 and use:
white:  5200
Gamma: 2.2
Intensity 110
Contrast: 250 (more correct for comparing to print (black level: 0.3-0.4)

Pete JF

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2018, 03:14:10 pm »

Excellent, thanks to you both..I'll give that shot Howard..just because we're in the 5k range to start.

Andrew? Can you run by settings for printing the test images?..can't recall..should i use my paper profile?

So, Im printing both those images and rendering in my Lightroom should correspond to renderings embedded in images?///not clear to me

Thanks guys..
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digitaldog

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2018, 03:17:05 pm »

Excellent, thanks to you both..I'll give that shot Howard..just because we're in the 5k range to start.

Andrew? Can you run by settings for printing the test images?..can't recall..should i use my paper profile?

So, Im printing both those images and rendering in my Lightroom should correspond to renderings embedded in images?///not clear to me

Thanks guys..
You don't touch the reference images whatsoever. You print them using color management (Application Manages Color) with the ICC paper profiles for the printer and paper. Print using the two rendering intent options as this can affect out of gamut colors and not all profiles are created equally. It's pointless to futz with the display, with it's limited color gamut until you know the problem is or isn't happening in the print path. Using the two images provided, you don't need to have anything to do with editing the data or how they preview. We're only at this point interested in the prints. THEN we can decided, based on the output, what to do about the display.
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Pete JF

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2018, 09:50:03 pm »

Hi Andrew,

Ok, printed off two of each using the Epson profile and alternated  Perceptual and Relative rendering intents in each pair..

They look pretty close to my monitor when judging the test images on the screen  with Soft Proof turned ON

..In the one with the fish, the blue circle, lowest right corner..goes very, very dark..can't read a lot of blue in it..Relative has a stronger blue tint but it's dark..the screen shows the same thing with Soft Proof turned on..veery dark blue circle-lower right..

Anyhow, Yellows look in line with how they should look, pretty much. Definitely no Amber shifting going on..

Even in the areas (strips of colors) that wash out to white the yellow holds up through the transition..i would judge the test images normal to test images i've printed in the past.

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digitaldog

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2018, 10:55:02 pm »

Then it sure sounds like this is an issue that image specific from whatever source you started from. From what you report, the reference image doesn't produce the amber shift and the print and display match closely with soft proof on. That's the good news. So if that's the case, don't futz with the display calibration.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2018, 10:58:27 pm »

Hi Andrew,

Ok, printed off two of each using the Epson profile and alternated  Perceptual and Relative rendering intents in each pair..

They look pretty close to my monitor when judging the test images on the screen  with Soft Proof turned ON

..In the one with the fish, the blue circle, lowest right corner..goes very, very dark..can't read a lot of blue in it..Relative has a stronger blue tint but it's dark..the screen shows the same thing with Soft Proof turned on..veery dark blue circle-lower right..

Anyhow, Yellows look in line with how they should look, pretty much. Definitely no Amber shifting going on..

Even in the areas (strips of colors) that wash out to white the yellow holds up through the transition..i would judge the test images normal to test images i've printed in the past.

This also occurs on my 9800 using canned Epson profiles but does not occur with X-Rite ones nor on my 9500 with their canned profiles.

This (dark, almost black, blue circle) is baked into the profile. As Andrew oft says, "not all profiles are created the same." He has pointed out this particular quirk of some Epson canned profiles before. And here the problem is that the blue circle is in ProPhoto and its colors are out of the printer's gamut. When that's the case there is no ICC specification as to how the profile maps these out of gamut colors onto something printable. X-Rite, amongst others, maps it in such a way that it actually looks somewhat similar to how the blue appears on the monitor w/o soft proofing. Its also out of the monitor's gamut. That the proof is dark along with the print is just showing that soft proofing is doing its job. It shows how a print will look because it uses the info in the profile which feeds back the actual colors printed.

In other words, your soft proofing and printing process is working.
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Pete JF

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2018, 09:16:07 am »

is it a crappy profile or am i out of gamut in some way?

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digitaldog

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2018, 09:48:47 am »

is it a crappy profile or am i out of gamut in some way?
Without the image and the profile, I can't say.
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Pete JF

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2018, 10:56:38 am »

It's the canned Epson profile for Premium Photo Paper Glossy 10 mil stuff..i use it mainly for work prints.

I made a print with the Canson Baryta Photographique 310 (satin) using the Canson profile for this paper and it's much better in the yellows, basically pretty accurate to my screen..

Im thinking it's a profile issue with the Epson stock profile.

What is a good source for getting high quality profiles made of 2 or 3 of my go to papers, Andrew..you? if not, recommendations?



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Doug Gray

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2018, 11:07:06 am »

is it a crappy profile or am i out of gamut in some way?

There are two major aspects of a profile that matters. How accurate it is printing in-gamut colors, and how it handles out-of-gamut colors. A profile can be very accurate printing in gamut yet handles out-of-gamut colors poorly and these can be in any image. Even when an image is in sRGB! This is why soft proofing is always a good idea.

Referring to the image with the fish against a blue tarp and circles along the bottom. If the image is in ProPhoto RGB, which is necessary to print strong, but in gamut colors, that are outside Adobe RGB, that image is Andrew's printer gamut test image. It's particularly useful for testing banding effects from gradients that are outside a printer's gamut. This can be important because all RGB colorspaces contain values that aren't printable. Even the narrow sRGB space has such colors.

An image such as Kodak's PDI image which is in Adobe RGB will produce good prints with an "accurate" profile using Rel. Col. w BPC because most all of the image is within gamut for glossy/semi-gloss type papers. However, it will tell nothing about how well the profile will deal with out-of-gamut images and these can be problematic. Especially when printing highly saturated gradients that exceed the printer's capability. Because of this my preference to quickly checking a printer is to print both Andrew's image and Kodak's Photodisc image which mostly contains in gamut colors.

The best suggestion for people w/o spectrophotometers which can measure and determine accuracy, but who have a ColorChecker card, is printing one of BabelColor's Colorchecker images using Photoshop and Abs. Col. intent. The print should visually closely match an actual Colorchecker*. This is one of the few, good, reasons for using Abs. Col. which is generally a poor choice for normal printing. However, this test says nothing about how a profile handles out-of-gamut colors. OTOH, a profile that does a good job printing a Colorchecker image is highly likely to produce good soft proof results so you can depend on the soft proof for avoiding or mitigating printing out of gamut colors.

* There are other complications from different illuminants that can mess this up even with an "accurate" profile. Profile can be generated using M0, M1, or M2 which have different levels of uV but otherwise use D50. This can cause Colorchecker prints on high OBA paper to vary a lot depending on the "M" and whether they are viewed in daylight or not. The best way to minimize this is using print paper that isn't heavy on OBAs and non-OBA paper will avoid the problem altogether regardless of what "M" the profile was made with. Some secondary effects can be present too such as metameric error from illuminants that differ from daylight. Luckily, these are usually much smaller than OBA related differences.

Andrew also has a business that makes/sells custom profiles. He is one of a small handful of true experts (in a practical, real world sense) in this field and he uses top of the line equipment.

Sorry for going into the weeds. I realize this can seem quite intimidatingly complex. I highly recommend viewing Andrew's video's on color management. They are highly accessible without too much jargon. More technical info can be had from the various papers linked on www.color.org which is the official site of the ICC.
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Pete JF

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Re: Yellows printing with Amber shift
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2018, 11:12:20 am »

Doug, thank you..I can do the weeds to a point but i appreciate your thoughtful responses..

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