Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Getting autotone to work adequately  (Read 4278 times)

Frodo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Getting autotone to work adequately
« on: October 06, 2018, 04:44:02 pm »

There's usually time pressure to get photos from an event back to a client.  And usually events involve many photos, often over a hundred. 
It would be great if autotone (auto-exposure) could get the exposure in the right ballpark.  Sadly, Lightroom's autotone button is almost useless.
In LR 6, autotone would almost invariably produce over-exposure, often with excessive contrast.
I thought that had been improved in LR Classic CC, but autotone has flipped the otherway, with photos typically given 1.5 to 2 stops underexposure and contrast at -20, when 0 is about right.
This is off RAW files with my 5DsR, 6D and M3.

Are there any work-arounds for this?  Ideally that I could calibrate the autotone function.
Otherwise its: set exposure for faces, fill shadows, adjust highlights, then set white and black clipping points. 
Surely there must be an algorithm that can get this right.
Even auto-exposure in Lightroom Elements is close.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14344
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2018, 05:15:07 pm »

You must be using a different Lightroom than the rest of us ;)

Frodo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2018, 05:34:03 pm »

Hi Slobodan
Perhaps you are right.  I was expecting a substantial improvement in autotone.  I'm using Lightroom Classic CC release 7.5.
Thanks, Bob
Logged

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 937
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2018, 05:40:19 pm »

Hi Slobodan
Perhaps you are right.  I was expecting a substantial improvement in autotone.  I'm using Lightroom Classic CC release 7.5.
Thanks, Bob
Is the problem that LR is not telepathic? I don't bother using it. I just adjust my images the way I want them. It only takes a few seconds.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 10:41:07 am by faberryman »
Logged

Frodo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2018, 05:41:40 pm »

Here are three photos (test shot for getting exposure right).
First: Original photo (just cropped)
Second: Autotone (ctrl-U)
Third: my preferred exposure
Logged

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 06:51:39 pm »

Hi, I'm new here. Lurked a lot and decided to participate.

What I have noticed. If I use Canon camera profiles Auto Tone can underexpose them a lot. If I use the same file with an Adobe profile this does not happen. I guess the engineers built Sensei using Adobe information. That is all I can think of.

This may be what you are looking for. The last tool - Personalized Auto Tone. You can apply it to one image at a time, a group or all while in the Develop module.               

http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/bag-o-goodies

I also use this which you may be interested in. Before this plug-in I set my Develop Default Settings by ISO so NR applied by a specific ISO.  I kept a master set of files per camera to make any changes to the Develop Settings. I had to use 1/1 ISO values - 100, 200, 400, 800 and so on. This created about 10 master files per camera. To use 1 /3 or intermediate ISO values would have made it impossible to manage.

You enter a range of ISO and NR range and it applies NR using a logarithmic formula. I now can shoot using all ISO values and use Auto ISO as well. Auto ISO does not work in 1/1. With the Bulk Developer I now only need 1 master file per Camera. Now the only things I apply at import is a colour profile and lens corrections. I created keyboard shortcuts for both plug-ins.

http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/bulk-develop

I used to apply Auto Tone at import but when Adobe changed the presets to XMP (7.3 I think) they messed something up. Applying Auto Tone at import overrides all your Default Develop Settings. I had to apply it after import in the Library module. Both these plug-ins have changed my workflow. Much closer starting base.           

 

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 06:58:32 pm »

Am I going to have to solve math problems every time I post? I didn't spend this much time at it in school. :) I did notice the questions are the same for my second post - hopefully.             

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14344
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2018, 07:11:56 pm »

Am I going to have to solve math problems every time I post? I didn't spend this much time at it in school. :) I did notice the questions are the same for my second post - hopefully.             

No, just for a couple of first posts. Intended to prevent spam.

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2018, 07:35:10 pm »

Thanks

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2018, 08:37:20 pm »

At first I didn't like the Contrast adjustments either. When you look at the images it adds more detail to shadow areas. With Personalized Auto Tone I allow 50% of what Sensei thinks. With Bulk Developer I didn't activate Colour Noise, Contrast and Clarity.

Auto Tone does not adjust Clarity but that is something that also auto applies with Default Develop Settings. Set to +12.

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15546
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2018, 08:46:07 pm »

No, just for a couple of first posts. Intended to prevent spam.
Seems not to be working by example.  :o
For the OP; auto anything in any product is usually hit or miss. Might be a good starting point. No insurance it’s the final point and software can only “Analyze” individual pixels and not color and tone in context. We see an image in context and edit based on this and a goal.
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2018, 09:23:15 pm »

Well you must be referring to me. The OP asked for help and I offered a suggestion. I have no affiliation with the developer.

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2018, 09:28:24 pm »

We had a short conversation earlier today at the Adobe forums regarding why some people see $9.99 for the photography plan and others see $19.99.

Frodo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2018, 10:11:47 pm »

For the OP; auto anything in any product is usually hit or miss. Might be a good starting point. No insurance it’s the final point and software can only “Analyze” individual pixels and not color and tone in context. We see an image in context and edit based on this and a goal.
Hi Andrew
I agree that auto anything is a bit hit and miss.  My car has manual transmission partly for this reason.
I'm not seeking perfect exposure per button click, hence using "adequate" in the title.
I thought autotone was improved significantly with Sensei AI, but my experience with three different cameras has not been positive. The example I posted has caucasian skin in front of z lot of dark foliage (even more in the uncropped image). If autotone is based on average pixels, I would have expected washed out skin, but instead I get underexposure.  Its hardly a "starting point".
The workflow I use (and described above) is okay, But I'll start the software Zen8 suggested .
Thanks
Logged

Schewe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6229
    • http:www.schewephoto.com
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2018, 10:33:35 pm »

What I have noticed. If I use Canon camera profiles Auto Tone can underexpose them a lot. If I use the same file with an Adobe profile this does not happen. I guess the engineers built Sensei using Adobe information. That is all I can think of.

Correct...while not stated anywhere, I happen to know that the Auto settings are based upon using Adobe Standard as the profile (or Adobe Color for new defaults which uses Adobe Standard underneath).

Not for nothing, this is what I got using ACR Auto on your JPEG...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 10:38:18 pm by Schewe »
Logged

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2018, 01:13:53 am »

How would you know that? Just kidding. :) Thanks for making PK Sharpener free. A nice addition to PS. I didn't really need it because by the time I learned about it almost all my exports were via LR.

             

Frodo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2018, 02:43:54 am »

Correct...while not stated anywhere, I happen to know that the Auto settings are based upon using Adobe Standard as the profile (or Adobe Color for new defaults which uses Adobe Standard underneath).

Not for nothing, this is what I got using ACR Auto on your JPEG...


Problem solved!  I knew it had to be simple.

First photo is autotone with Camera Standard profile.
Second is autotone with Adobe Standard.
The difference is huge and the second image is pretty close.
I tend to prefer the colours with Camera Standard, but not enough to make a difference when I have a lot of images to process and autotone works so much better.

Thanks Jeff and Zen8!



Logged

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2018, 10:12:16 am »

Those are the exact results I got. Even that bit of highlights around the hair is enough for Sensei to over-protect a Canon profile. You will notice files that do have bright highlights are fine. I also have thing for Canon files. When shoot people I use Canon Portrait and do not apply Auto Tone. Most of my shooting is wildlife and scenic so Auto Tone works fine. If Sensei lowers the exposure too much I just bring it back up again.       

I did experiment a little. If you want to use Adobe profiles I find Adobe Colour lacks a little punch compared to Canon Standard. To match it I found it easier to use Adobe Vivid and tone down saturation (and a few other tweaks) than use Adobe Colour and try and punch it up. I use the adjustments in Personalized Auto Tone to do this and I got pretty close to Canon Standard.

There are several work arounds but easiest option is to just use an Adobe profile.

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15546
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2018, 10:23:18 am »

The only problem I see now, is that auto tone works and your stuck so to speak, with only that Adobe Profile for all the other rendering it affected. Not certain it’s a good deal.  ???
Logged
Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Zen8

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
    • My Photo Collections
Re: Getting autotone to work adequately
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2018, 11:05:29 am »

This is true. I'm not sure how a ColourChecker profile would work. I'll give it a try.

It does make sense Adobe would use their own formulas with Sensei. C1's claim is how great their images look out of the box using their colour rendition. Adobe Standard is flat. For years we got Adobe Standard and either you tweaked, used a camera, created a custom profile using ColorChecker, etc.

I came across a C1 video saying how much better it was out of the box compared to LR. You don't know if C1 was showing the final image or not. My guess it was. They were comparing the image in LR before export and my guess it was an un-edited Adobe Standard file. A big difference between the two.

Several months later Adobe introduced new profiles (Adobe Colour is now the default), improved Sensei and increased the sharping default to 40. I have a feeling this was a response to competitors as first impressions do make a difference, especially for people just starting out. I'm surprised it took that long.

So there are the 2 sides I guess. People who are going to use Adobe or Camera profiles and ones who prefer or need to use colour charts for industry standards and Auto Tone won't matter.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up