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Author Topic: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019  (Read 8153 times)

digitaldog

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2018, 05:39:10 pm »

It's really simple; ON1 just doesn't cut the mustard yet. Capture One is still LR's closest competitor. Who else can compete is still up for argument.
Opinions are like assholes everyone has one.
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Rhossydd

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2018, 05:44:48 pm »

Opinions are like assholes everyone has one.
So now you hit the credit card on ON1 it's so good it can't be crticised ? Careful, you're loosing credibility here now.
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digitaldog

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 05:51:27 pm »

So now you hit the credit card on ON1 it's so good it can't be crticised ? Careful, you're loosing credibility here now.
I made absolutely no comments about the quality of ON1 processing. You’re assuming again. And you have lost a lot of credibility here!  :P
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Rhossydd

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 06:00:06 pm »

So here's how bad highlight recover is compared to LR & CO.
FWIW the clouds weren't green or pink, just grey.
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digitaldog

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 06:05:06 pm »

So here's how bad highlight recover is compared to LR & CO.
FWIW the clouds weren't green or pink, just grey.
Thank you for that effort on your part. 8)
Why not consider uploading a raw so we can see how overexposed that image really is. And test highlight recovery on our end.
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MattBurt

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2018, 06:10:23 pm »

I'll be interested to see how the 2019 version looks. I'm also on the lookout for a LR replacement but not in a hurry (yet).
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Rhossydd

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2018, 03:45:21 am »

Why not consider uploading a raw
I don't have permission from the person in the photo to do that.

Just try your own files, I'm just confirming someone else's observations anyway.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 08:44:24 am by Rhossydd »
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Bob_T

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2018, 07:56:00 am »

So here's how bad highlight recover is compared to LR & CO.
FWIW the clouds weren't green or pink, just grey.

Interesting. I have been working with ON1 for almost a year, and have never seen this.
Going to see if I can duplicate it.
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digitaldog

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2018, 09:13:48 am »

Interesting. I have been working with ON1 for almost a year, and have never seen this.
Going to see if I can duplicate it.
We start by deliberately not exposing correctly.... :o
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Bob_T

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2018, 09:21:52 am »

We start by deliberately not exposing correctly.... :o

LOL....That's my problem. I am missing the first step... ;)
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kirkt

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2018, 12:41:44 pm »

Highlight reconstruction is all about not "exposing properly," (or is it?) so that one, two or all three channels get clipped in the raw file.  The idea is to purposely do this to see how the application deals with sensor saturation (so as to avoid the magenta highlights problem when reducing exposure to recover highlights) and how it infers the missing color channel data from intact data to reconstruct highlights.  When you are shooting a high contrast scene, knowing how far you can let the highlights go before your raw converter cannot reconstruct them is critical to setting the best exposure for the scene.

I recently switched from shooting Canon for years, with all of the 5D cameras, to Fujifilm.  For each camera I used, I would shoot a sequence of raw files with increasing exposure to probe how to spot meter for the camera and raw conversions.  I would set the reference metering on the brightest highlights for which I wanted to retain detail (say, fluffy white clouds, or a white terry cloth towel in direct illumination) and set that spot meter reading as my initial exposure.  I would then increment shutter speed to increase exposure in 1/3 stops for about +5 EV total bias from the initial meter reading.  I then examined each file in Raw Digger to see what bias value gave me clipping in the green channel (typically, this channel reaches clipping first in daylight).  The red and blue were typically 1 to 1.5 stops under the green value, providing plenty of data for reconstructing the missing green channel - especially if the clipped highlights were neutral.  Depending on the raw converter, I could spot meter the highlight and add 3 to 4 stops of exposure bias and still have intact highlights with highlight reconstruction added in raw conversion.

I suppose if you wanted to test a bunch of converters to see how they all handle highlights and highlight reconstruction, then you could shoot a few different scenes with 0) the exposure set so that no channels clip - that is the hottest channel is exposed so that it is right next to the right edge of the raw histogram; 1) an exposure that clips the green; 2) a slightly higher exposure that clips both green and blue; and 3) a slightly higher exposure that clips all three channels.  For each of these images per test scene, you could then run them through the raw converter you are testing and see how it responds.  I would suggest that you test scenes that have both neutral highlights (like clouds) as well as colored highlights (like a towel or some other bright, textured colored surface - this may skew the order in which the channels clip). 

As far as I know, Raw Therapee is the only relatively popular raw converter that explicitly exposes several different highlight reconstruction strategies directly to the user.

Kirk
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 12:45:20 pm by kirkt »
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2018, 04:00:55 pm »

On1 has never said their highlight recovery is the best, in fact they say expose for highlights and they deal with shadows much better. If I am in doubt I will bracket an exposure. I am constantly amazed at how much dynamic range my Fuji has over my 5dmII. I believe Iridient and Capture One give the absolute best raw conversion for my Fuji, but I like a lot of what On1 does. The masking is pretty solid and flexible. Like any tool you need to use and learn it to understand limitations. I find I am more interested in how the overall image looks and feels than how the pixels look magnified or the histogram, but that is just me. Everyone else has their own priorities. It is a useful tool that I think is going be improved quite a bit with the new release, I am sure there will be bumps but they work hard to correct them. Bugs and problems exist with all developers, having developed software I am acutely aware of it.

Alan
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Alan Smallbone
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Rhossydd

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2018, 04:36:19 am »

On1 has never said their highlight recovery is the best, in fact they say expose for highlights and they deal with shadows much better.
I don't think that changing your exposure strategy to compensate for a raw converter's poor performance is a very good idea. If they eventually catch up or you change software you're stuck with a lot of under exposed photos to work with.
(this is what I did when I first shot digital before highlight recovery was properly established, so I've too many old, less than optimal exposures sitting on my HDD).
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I find I am more interested in how the overall image looks and feels than how the pixels look magnified or the histogram
Absolutely, but when so much detail is lost it does effect the final prints (as per my earlier example and I've seen that on everything else I've looked at). I didn't buy a 5Dii and not care about improving my prints over a 10D. Some people's style doesn't need lots of detail, so maybe ON1 will suit them, but not me.
There also seem to be some curious sharpening artifacts when using CA removal, sharpening doesn't seem very good, noise reduction isn't as good as the competition. Just about everything I've explored doesn't seem as well implemented as other products. The simple task of exporting a rendered TIFF seems clunky and unreliable.
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It is a useful tool that I think is going be improved quite a bit with the new release
Certainly there are more features being added, but there's no headlines about improved demosaicing or fundamental conversion quality.
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2018, 07:42:38 pm »

While I agree that testing with RAW digger is the absolute best way to determine your limits in exposure I do not always adhere to that and I tend to not rely on highlight recovery since that is a best guesstimate. yes it is better than it used to be but to me blown highlights are still blown highlights. I certainly do not expose until I determine that the recovery looks natural but this is all to taste. There is no right or wrong and it certainly does not matter what the software is at that point, as that is technique. I am still quit happy with what I use but I do not limit myself to one tool. I use C1 as well as On1 as well as what ever gives me the result I wish but I find I am no longer reliant on Adobe, which is not good or bad but a choice.

Alan
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Alan Smallbone
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2018, 09:14:20 pm »

While I agree that testing with RAW digger is the absolute best way to determine your limits in exposure I do not always adhere to that and I tend to not rely on highlight recovery since that is a best guesstimate. yes it is better than it used to be but to me blown highlights are still blown highlights. I certainly do not expose until I determine that the recovery looks natural but this is all to taste. There is no right or wrong and it certainly does not matter what the software is at that point, as that is technique. I am still quit happy with what I use but I do not limit myself to one tool. I use C1 as well as On1 as well as what ever gives me the result I wish but I find I am no longer reliant on Adobe, which is not good or bad but a choice.

Hi Alan,

I fully agree. Blown highlights are blown, even if only in one channel. HL-recovery is a (useful) cludge at best.

I am also no longer reliant on Adobe for most of my work, there are (arguably) 'better' alternatives available, although at times slightly less convenient. But then, 'convenient' is often a downwards slope.

I think that OnOne offers a useful avenue forwards, although it seems to cater to the more 'creative' (preset) oriented workflow. Personally, I'm more into a 'realistic' looking baseline rendering, hence my preference for Capture One Pro as a top-notch Raw converter for the first (and sometimes final) stage.

I'm not impressed by the Raw conversion quality of On1, to say the least, but then I'm spoiled by Capture One.

Cheers,
Bart
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Jack Hogan

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Re: ON1 announces Photo Raw 2019
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2018, 04:07:40 am »

I think that OnOne offers a useful avenue forwards, although it seems to cater to the more 'creative' (preset) oriented workflow. Personally, I'm more into a 'realistic' looking baseline rendering...

Agreed on all counts.  That's the main reason ON1 was quickly disinstalled after a day trial a while ago.
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