Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)  (Read 7227 times)

adriantyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« on: September 05, 2018, 03:24:45 pm »

I switched from my D800 to the Sony A7 system a few years ago (we have loads of threads stating the pros and cons.) However, whatever the virtues or vices of said camera, as I see it (I am a layman,) Sony have scored a MAJOR GOAL over the established brands with their mirror-less electronic cameras, question is, why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirror-less? It seems to me (again, I am a layman) that Canikon have had a severe a$$ kicking for this lack of foresight... hmmm... Was it worth the wait? Or are they just gonna pick up the crumbs that fall off  the Sony table?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 03:28:31 pm by adriantyler »
Logged

capital

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 222
    • Website
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 03:35:00 pm »

Nikon tried out Nikon 1, first.

Canon tried EOS M, first.

If the end user saw value in a switch to Sony back then, it is a bit moot to ask why not now switch to Nikon or Canon.

Canon, Nikon & Sony will do what they want, not really up to us.

Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 04:01:32 pm »

Big companies are in general incapable of killing off their cash cows. Witness Kodak, which created electronic camera tech in the mid-1970s and then mostly sat on it for fear of cutting into film sales. Nikon and Canon have both made their bones in the SLR market. But that they're both jumping (how far remains to be seen) into mirrorless could be a sign they're capable of being more flexible than the norm. They've both got large user bases too. I wouldn't write either one off.

-Dave-
Logged

adriantyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2018, 04:09:14 pm »

Big companies are in general incapable of killing off their cash cows. Witness Kodak, which created electronic camera tech in the mid-1970s and then mostly sat on it for fear of cutting into film sales. Nikon and Canon have both made their bones in the SLR market. But that they're both jumping (how far remains to be seen) into mirrorless could be a sign they're capable of being more flexible than the norm. They've both got large user bases too. I wouldn't write either one off.

-Dave-

Yes, a tragic example, the loss of 200,000 secure jobs...

As you say, let's not write Canikon off, the Nikon 40 mpixel whatever it's called looks great, if it can handle the ASPH leica lenses better than the Sony I'll get one...

My question is more related to how on earth they didn't see it coming...
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2018, 04:41:11 pm »

They saw it coming but, looking at facts and not hype, at least Nikon has been able so far to release higher performance bodies using DSLR technology.

They have chosen to enter mirrorless seriously because they now think they can do better with mirrorless technology. As good bodywise and much better lenswise.

Nikon is a very traditional optical company who thinks that photographers look at hard facts and will chose the system delivering the best image quality.

Canon has focused on half baked video, some nice lenses and invested their cash in sales and marketing and it has worked well for them.

Cheers,
Bernard

donbga

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 454
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2018, 08:29:38 pm »

Yes, a tragic example, the loss of 200,000 secure jobs...

As you say, let's not write Canikon off, the Nikon 40 mpixel whatever it's called looks great, if it can handle the ASPH leica lenses better than the Sony I'll get one...

My question is more related to how on earth they didn't see it coming...

Kodak never had 200,000 employees. World wide it was closer to 25 to 30K at their peak.
Logged

Two23

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2018, 09:40:08 pm »

For me the big thing isn't cameras, it's lenses.  Both Canon & Nikon have limited resources to design and manufacture new lenses.  I have to wonder how much of that limited resource will go into new DSLR lenses and how much into the new mounts.  The new mounts offer lens designers some new opportunities, and I think that's what will eventually cause DSLR cameras to slowly fade.  I look at the Nikon S series and the conversion to the Nikon F series.  After searching the internet for 20 minutes I've been unable to find any S mount lenses with serial numbers after 1960.  (F was introduced in 1959.)  Doesn't mean they're not out there, I just can't find them.  Nikon seems to have switched practically overnight from S to F mount!  That's unlikely to be the case now, with millions of F mount cameras out there, but still I don't see how Nikon will be able to maintain three lines of lenses.


Kent in SD
Logged
Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris,
miserere nobis.

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2018, 10:25:12 pm »

Nikon and Canon will be facing tough decisions moving forward...

I don’t they can afford to make many mistakes in terms of mirrorless/dSLR lenses line up.

Cheers,
Bernard

adriantyler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2018, 01:19:01 am »

Kodak never had 200,000 employees. World wide it was closer to 25 to 30K at their peak.

here we have 130,000 people in 1973, most of those jobs secure middle class jobs with pensions etc.

http://theweek.com/articles/481308/rise-fall-kodak-by-numbers

sorry, off topic...
Logged

Paulo Bizarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7409
    • http://www.paulobizarro.com
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2018, 07:22:25 am »

I suppose you mean full frame MILC? If that is the case, the reason is simple. Both companies have analysed the market and Sony's success with the Alpha FE system, and think that now is the right time to also make money from it.

While preventing more own users to buy Sony.

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2018, 07:51:02 am »

For me the big thing isn't cameras, it's lenses.  Both Canon & Nikon have limited resources to design and manufacture new lenses.  I have to wonder how much of that limited resource will go into new DSLR lenses and how much into the new mounts.  The new mounts offer lens designers some new opportunities, and I think that's what will eventually cause DSLR cameras to slowly fade.  I look at the Nikon S series and the conversion to the Nikon F series.  After searching the internet for 20 minutes I've been unable to find any S mount lenses with serial numbers after 1960.  (F was introduced in 1959.)  Doesn't mean they're not out there, I just can't find them.  Nikon seems to have switched practically overnight from S to F mount!  That's unlikely to be the case now, with millions of F mount cameras out there, but still I don't see how Nikon will be able to maintain three lines of lenses.


Kent in SD


Back then with the intro of the slr F, Nikon understood the limitations of rangefinder bodies and the fact that it could sell many more lenses if it tied its flag to a ship that had unlimited potential, which rangefinders never did.

It was a smart move, as history went on to prove.

Rob

jeremyrh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2514
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2018, 08:42:42 am »

Or are they just gonna pick up the crumbs that fall off  the Sony table?

I wonder who it is that buys a Z7 or a A7R3 ? Until today, if you wanted a high performance mirrorless, you had no choice, and if it meant selling your CaNikon lenses, so be it. Now that's not the case. I would guess that photographers with even a modest investment in a system will need a very big incentive to switch, so a Z7 buyer will be someone who has a Nikon kit and a A7R3 buyer will be someone who has Sony kit. That's more a case of Nikon stopping crumbs (or indeed cakes) falling off their own table.

Logged

chez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2501
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2018, 08:54:07 am »

I wonder who it is that buys a Z7 or a A7R3 ? Until today, if you wanted a high performance mirrorless, you had no choice, and if it meant selling your CaNikon lenses, so be it. Now that's not the case. I would guess that photographers with even a modest investment in a system will need a very big incentive to switch, so a Z7 buyer will be someone who has a Nikon kit and a A7R3 buyer will be someone who has Sony kit. That's more a case of Nikon stopping crumbs (or indeed cakes) falling off their own table.

Let's not forget the new photographers just entering the hobby. China, Asia and India has a middle class rising that will drive many company decisions.
Logged

jeremyrh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2514
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2018, 09:00:12 am »

Let's not forget the new photographers just entering the hobby. China, Asia and India has a middle class rising that will drive many company decisions.
Agreed but I'd have thought that those would more likely be looking at the Z6 vs Sony whatever?

Thinking about how I became a Nikon user - I went into a shop and handled the D70 and Canon equivalent, did not see (or understand) a technical difference, and bought the one that felt nicer (or had the cuter shop assistant). Nikon now have something to put into the hands of new photographers who will care more about the assistant's pretty smile than Tony Northrup ranting on about card slots, so I don't see them as being at much of a disadvantage at all at this stage.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2018, 04:39:09 pm »

I wonder who it is that buys a Z7 or a A7R3 ?
The great majority of photographers currently using 36x24 cameras are using Canon or Nikon SLRs, and the great majority of lenses owned for 36x24 format are Canon and Nikon lenses. (A single half-year of Sony being #1 in 36x24 format sales in the USA when it had the only new "entry-level" priced model in that format does not vaporize all the Canon and Nikon bodies and lenses bought over recent years.) So I think the answer includes lots of those Canon and Nikon users who are confident that their current lenses will work fairly well on adaptors so that they only initially need one or two new lenses, and who over all trust those brands and their lenses more as long-term prospects.

They might be wrong in that judgement, but that is a different topic!


P. S. My guess is that the timing of Nikon Z and Canon R relates in part to waiting for "good enough" AF with SLR lenses on EVF bodies.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 04:43:20 pm by BJL »
Logged

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4851
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2018, 04:48:11 pm »

The great majority of photographers currently using 36x24 cameras are using Canon or Nikon SLRs, and the great majority of lenses owned for 36x24 format are Canon and Nikon lenses.
Why would the owner of a 5DIV or D850 and a bunch of lenses want to buy a Canon R or Z7? How will they make better images? It can't be size and weight, since by the time you've added an adapter, you've negated that advantage?
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2018, 05:08:35 pm »

Why would the owner of a 5DIV or D850 and a bunch of lenses want to buy a Canon R or Z7? How will they make better images? It can't be size and weight, since by the time you've added an adapter, you've negated that advantage?

This has been answered many times already.
- all the values of mirrorless vs DSLRs (the exact same reasons why many Canikon users have bought Sony a7!bodies): EVF (preview, histogram, better in the dark,...), AF (full frame coverage, smaller points, no lens adjustement, better face AF/eye AF)
- compact size with native lenses
- IBIS (for the Z)
- silent shooting
- higher quality lenses thanks to larger mount

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? switching from which CaNikon body?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2018, 05:19:38 pm »

Why would the owner of a 5DIV or D850 and a bunch of lenses want to buy a Canon R or Z7? How will they make better images? It can't be size and weight, since by the time you've added an adapter, you've negated that advantage?
Firstly a lot of those Canon and Nikon 36x24 owners have less expensive models (6DII, D750) and/or older models: "why upgrade from the previous latest and greatest" is usually a red-herring.

Secondly, as has been said many times already, some people prefer the new EVF systems for a variety of reasons; "mirrorless" long since stopped being mainly about size and weight, and that was maybe mostly about smaller format models with neither EVF nor OVF.

Thirdly, a Z or R body is likely to be used a large proportion of the time with one or two new "native" lenses, along-side some SLR lenses already owned: then the bulk advantage applies.

(Fourthly, a Z7 + FTZ adaptor is in fact smaller and lighter than a D850, but to me that is a minor issue.)
Logged

chez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2501
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2018, 09:50:33 pm »

Why would the owner of a 5DIV or D850 and a bunch of lenses want to buy a Canon R or Z7? How will they make better images? It can't be size and weight, since by the time you've added an adapter, you've negated that advantage?

Well I'm a good example of someone that moved to mirrorless to save bulk and weight of my travel kit...and I saved around 40% of my DSLR kit and boosted my image quality in the process...so those that don't feel you can create a smaller lighter travel kit from mirrorless just hasn't really tried...or doesn't want to try.
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Why the HUGE wait for Canikon mirrorless? (and was it worth it)
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2018, 02:14:11 am »

It would also be possible to have two different kits based around the same camera for different purposes. If I end up with the Z7, which I have on preorder and am seriously considering, the concept would be:

Long hike kit (up to hundreds of miles):
Z7
24-70 f4
14-30 f4
Four batteries (charge 'em from solar or a weekly town stop)
Several XQD cards
iPhone with Lightning to USB adapter and lightweight XQD reader as a backup device (I knew there was a reason Apple has half terabyte iPhones). Besides being a lightweight device with a ton of SSD, an iPhone also has good LTE and WiFi - it can send the photos to cloud backup on town stops, and Verizon will regret the day they sold unlimited data to photographers - it doesn't get throttled because it's not on congested towers (and they are looking for people doing a ton of downloads, not uploads.
Solar charging rig or backup battery as conditions dictate

Before solar or backup battery, but including the four camera batteries, this is right around four pounds for near 4x5" image quality anywhere... It's relatively versatile - no long focal lengths, but I almost never do wildlife on multi-day trips (nothing vaguely carryable is long enough...).

For day hikes and other shorter trips, add some or all of (some rented as needed):
FTZ adapter
Tilt-shift lens
Gitzo Series 1 tripod
Long lens
True macro lens

For shooting events or other "in town" uses, any of the above plus:
A Speedlight or two
MacBook Pro
Little Canon Selphy photo printer (I have been known to use these to amuse my nieces and nephews at various events)

One could do something similar with any mirrorless system - my present Fuji system is organized along similar lines, and I would gradually add the higher-resolution Nikon gear as I could afford it. Easy adapter access to a big DSLR lens line helps for things like tilt-shift lenses, but Fuji, Sony and Micro 4/3 all have most of the lenses to do a travel plus in town system...

If the best primary body is as heavy as a D850 or a 5DIV, and the compact travel lenses aren't available, the "long hike kit" balloons from 4 lbs to 6 or 7, which is huge when  your total pack capacity is in the low 30s...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 02:21:36 am by Dan Wells »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up