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Author Topic: Mirrorless, everywhere!  (Read 2243 times)

HywelPhillips

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Mirrorless, everywhere!
« on: September 02, 2018, 10:04:46 am »

LOL I go on holiday and there is one FF mirrorless system of note.

I come back and there are four!

Great to see Nikon plus (hopefully) Canon and Panasonic joining Sony at the party.

It is noticeable how as time goes on our A7RII and A7RIII are getting more and more use, while the Hasselblad gets less and less (despite it's stunning results in correct conditions, especially regarding the colours). It's just we're finding the expanded shooting envelope and the mirrorless working pattern more and more natural the longer we do it. My assistants now ALWAYS want to shoot with one of the Sonys rather than the 'blad or even their own Canons.

The Nikons look broadly like the A7RIII and A7III - pluses and minuses.

The Canons could score big for me with dual pixel video AF and colour science, if only they can get over their urge to cripple them the way they've crippled their recent dSLRs. (Video codec, no slow-mo, that sort of thing).

If Panasonic can really nail a GH5 with FF sensor, or even push the spec a bit more out there, that could be a winner- even more so if they can push the envelope even further in terms of slowmo, high bit rate, 10 bit log 422, etc. 

Exciting times!

  Cheers, Hywel
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DP

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 10:30:24 am »

yes, everybody - C & N - except Sony (and Panasonic) still castrates dSLMs feture-wise to protect their dSLRs...
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32BT

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 10:41:28 am »

yes, everybody - C & N - except Sony (and Panasonic) still castrates dSLMs feture-wise to protect their dSLRs...

Why do you keep singing this same old song over and over again? I realize the western marketing model is hard to grasp for some of you, but first of all, they haven't even released dSLMs, let alone deliberately crippled ones, and secondly, it would mean, like you said, that their most dangerous competitor would gladly eat away at the marketshare that you believe they are trying to protect.

It could well be that Sony and Pany are the only ones that have solved the processing problems associated with some features, like heatdissipation to name just one.
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DP

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 11:06:30 am »

Why do you keep singing this same old song over and over again?

Why what I do bothers you, don't we have an ignore list ? use it !
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HywelPhillips

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2018, 11:46:41 am »

I realize the western marketing model is hard to grasp for some of you, but first of all, they haven't even released dSLMs, let alone deliberately crippled ones, and secondly, it would mean, like you said, that their most dangerous competitor would gladly eat away at the marketshare that you believe they are trying to protect.

It could well be that Sony and Pany are the only ones that have solved the processing problems associated with some features, like heatdissipation to name just one.

I dunno whether that was aimed at me, but my response would be as follows, at least as far as Canon are concerned.

It may be that there are good technical reasons, like heat dissipation, why Canon have released years worth of relatively under-performing cameras for video.

They clearly have the technology for their cine EOS line, but may not be able to miniaturise it for dSLR-like form factors.

If that's true, they have a really big problem which they need to solve like, NOW. They are losing a pretty visible segment of the video market, and if they can't dissipate the heat, they're not going to be able to make decent mirrorless systems with the advances customers are already coming to expect - like IBIS and eye AF and 120 fps slow-mo. 

I've gone from Canon dSLR's being my workhorse cameras for both stills and video to just one Canon body still left in my kit room - a full-spectrum-hacked Rebel that I use for Infrared.

I still have a lot of Canon lenses, but they get more use on my RED and my Sonys via adaptor than they do on Canon bodies.

I don't know how common my experience is, but I'm not alone. Check any of the usual suspects video maker blogs and a lot of people have moved on to A7 series Sonys and GH series Panasonics.

Personally, I don't think the form factor difference between a C200 and a dSLR is so great as to mean the tech from one can't get into the form factor of the other. I may be wrong, but Canon have a lot of very clever engineers, and if they can do it on the C200, I think it is more likely that they've not put it on the dSLRs to protect the cine EOS line. But maybe I'm wrong, in which case Canon are technologically screwed.

Which would be a shame.

I'd love to have a hybrid stills/video mirrorless from Canon with Canon colours and competitive feature set again... especially as they have the KILLER app in video with dual pixel AF. They just need to bring it to the right form factor and at a decent-ish price point- more like a top end dSLR than a dedicated cine camera.

The 1DXII was almost it, but falls short for me on the stills resolution, bulky form-factor and emphasis on high-speed rather than high-resolution shooting. The 5D4 is fine, but lacks a lot of the attractions of an A7RIII like IBIS and eye AF, and is short on a fair few video features too (The A7RIII's 1080p 120 fps with autofocus is pretty darned good). The 6D2 video is really not up to scratch, one or two generations behind the competition at least.


Cheers, Hywel
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HywelPhillips

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2018, 01:39:49 pm »

... and to add a slightly facetious comment gathered from buying a lot of kit over the years, IMO...

Canon gear always performs very solidly, but no surprises or delights with a kick-ass feature at the price point. They behave like you would expect, reliably (and best-sellingly).

The one exception was where Canon jump-started a revolution with video on the 5D Mark II- unintentionally and accidentally! They thought the feature would be useful for photo journalists, and it sorta came for free once you have live view at a decent frame rate. Canons always seem to be lacking just one or two features that their competitors have at that price point... but you can always spend more and get it. They kick started a revolution and then had no idea what to do with it.

Nikons have had the best AF, the best low ISO IQ, plus the very long legacy of lenses which has kept them many fans. There's been plenty to love in terms of image quality, but it is conservative steady progress rather than any big leaps forward.

Panasonic has a long history in the video arena and are famous for always squeezing in one or two killer features at a price point no-one else manages. That's why the DVX100 sold and sold (progressive scan, cine-like gammas- even an anamorphic adaptor for Pete's sake). The HVX200 brought HD in reach of mortals, and the GH4 brought pro-level 4K. They've been really hindered by having nothing larger than 43rds size sensors in the lower price range, and their colours got a bit wonky for a while. But they are back on track and a full frame GH5 is a very tantalising prospect.

Olympus do small size and top quality within those constraints, same as they always have.

Leica do large price and larger price, hit and miss quality (remember the magenta blacks?) I don't know a single person who uses one as their workhorse.

Sony do technological leap forward Franken-creatures with more features than their interface designers have any idea how to control. It's like a formula one racing car which can fly to the moon, but with clown car controls. Nonetheless, they've been the technological driver for a few years now and everyone else is playing catch-up.

Hasselblad nearly died (Lunar...) but have a solid end-of-the-road MF dSLR in the H6 and a promising platform in mirrorless MF; allied with DJI who aren't afraid to kick ass and take names, they are undergoing something of a renaissance. One to watch, the X1D successor might be quite the thing. Oh and you can use V series and Xpan lenses on them now which is entirely retro but nonetheless rather awesome.

Pentax have some killer bodies with unique features (astro tracking, and the 645Z is by all accounts really nice) but seem a bit at sea with coherent lens lineups. They just can't seem to catch a break and grab a market segment to make their own. I don't know what to tell their marketing guys- keep at it, I guess, and get the parent company to put out some exciting lenses.

Phase One have come full circle with the vendetta against Hasselblad after Hasselblad sealed their system- now it is Phase that won't play nice. (Try opening a Pentax or Hasselblad MF shot in Capture One to see what I mean- and you can't use the latest Phase backs on H bodies). They've got the very, very top end sewn up, but I have no idea how long that's going to be viable for them. If you really need 150 megapixels they are the only game in town... but who actually does? Especially if the next step up in FF is 75 megapixels and crop MF is 100 megapixels.

Sigma have made a very impressive change from the cheap alternative lens supplier to the world into THE current kick-ass lens company. They just have no idea where to go with their camera bodies. They've got a potentially killer feature in Foveon sensors but can't seem to bring it to market in a way which captures the customers, and there may just be too many technical issues to make it viable compared with the Swiss army knife capabilities of Bayer sensors. Or maybe someone with deep pockets can invest in the tech and get it to mature. I feel like it ought to be the answer, but maybe the requirements of fabrication and readout are just prohibitive.

Fuji do their own sweet thing with beautiful filmic results- I know a lot of people have and love a Fuji as their second system, but somehow few people are using them as their workhorse A cam. Maybe full frame is too crowded now for them - maybe they should do more of the "killer for one job" cameras they've done good things with in the past. A dedicated digital Xpan, for example. "Make beautiful images easily" could be their strap line- it's sort of an 80:20 thing. 80% of the results with 20% of the effort, but harder to get that extra 20% of the result compared with some competing systems, and in 20% of the shooting scenarios you might find you'd be better off with a camera with broader capabilities.



Have I missed anyone?  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Hywel






« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 01:43:34 pm by HywelPhillips »
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rdonson

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2018, 07:21:56 pm »

... and to add a slightly facetious comment gathered from buying a lot of kit over the years, IMO...

Fuji do their own sweet thing with beautiful filmic results- I know a lot of people have and love a Fuji as their second system, but somehow few people are using them as their workhorse A cam. Maybe full frame is too crowded now for them - maybe they should do more of the "killer for one job" cameras they've done good things with in the past. A dedicated digital Xpan, for example. "Make beautiful images easily" could be their strap line- it's sort of an 80:20 thing. 80% of the results with 20% of the effort, but harder to get that extra 20% of the result compared with some competing systems, and in 20% of the shooting scenarios you might find you'd be better off with a camera with broader capabilities.

Have I missed anyone?  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Hywel

If you're trying to stir things up you're on the right path.   ;D

Fuji said a long time ago they weren't interested in 35mm digital sensors.  They were going to pursue APS-C and MF digital.  With those two sensor sizes covered its hard to see what they would gain from offering a 35mm sensor camera and lenses.
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eronald

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2018, 09:30:55 pm »

A good example of crippling was the Eos 1DC vs Eos 1Dx.

Edmund
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Telecaster

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 04:13:17 pm »

Fuji said a long time ago they weren't interested in 35mm digital sensors.  They were going to pursue APS-C and MF digital.  With those two sensor sizes covered its hard to see what they would gain from offering a 35mm sensor camera and lenses.

The one (possible) camera from all this recent hubbub that I'm actually curious about is Fuji's RF-styled version of the GFX-50. It sounds a lot like what I'd hoped they'd release in the first place. I'd certainly use my Pentax 645D a lot more if it wasn't such an obtrusive brick to carry around.

-Dave-
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HywelPhillips

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 05:20:37 am »

Well, the Canon specs are out.

5D4 sensor, nice lenses, first-party use of legacy lenses,  high-end consumer body rather than flagship model which I think is a bit of a risky strategy from them. But if they can get the high-end model out in six or twelve months they'll probably do great. 

Tempting in some ways for me: I've been pining for dual pixel AF in video since I used a friend's 1DXII. As an APS-C video cam to keep a foot in the Canon camp it has considerable appeal, especially as they've FINALLY gone for fully articulating screen and a decent codec. The lack of IBIS would rule it out as an A cam for me but I know I'm prone to camera shake so more sensitive to it than most maybe. (My subjects require me to move around a lot and shoot quickly, and IBIS really helps, as does fast sync speed which is one of the reasons I still use the Hasselblad quite a bit).

Kudos to Canon for the built-in filters in the adaptor idea. That makes a 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens on an EOS R body a very appealing go-everywhere video-making tool. I assume EF-S lenses have enough clearance not to foul the rear filter. Big shame they didn't implement full frame video though.

The Nikon is not tempting because of the complete lack of native lenses I personally want, and I have no Nikon legacy lenses to use. If I didn't already have Sonys, I'd be looking at the Nikon offerings with interest.

Very interested to see what Panasonic come up with. A full frame GH5 with great lenses would tip me in that direction for sure. Or Sony could come up with a better form factor better ergonomics body and I'll just stick with them.

Great time to be reading full reviews when they come out, and bad time to be making a buying decision. Hold off until next year when the systems are up and running in the wild and see what the verdict is then :)

Cheers, Hywel






« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 05:38:41 am by HywelPhillips »
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davidgp

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2018, 05:53:01 am »


Very interested to see what Panasonic come up with. A full frame GH5 with great lenses would tip me in that direction for sure. Or Sony could come up with a better form factor better ergonomics body and I'll just stick with them.


I don’t expect Sony updating the body until they release the IV series of the cameras... and I don’t expect that it is going to happen until next year... if it happens next year


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faberryman

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 01:36:25 pm »

I don’t expect Sony updating the body until they release the IV series of the cameras... and I don’t expect that it is going to happen until next year... if it happens next year.
What's the hurry to update given the specs of the new Canon and Nikon?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 01:44:03 pm by faberryman »
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D Fuller

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 02:21:00 pm »


I don’t expect Sony updating the body until they release the IV series of the cameras... and I don’t expect that it is going to happen until next year... if it happens next year


http://dgpfotografia.com

IF Sony is going to update the a7s, you’ll see an a7s3 next year, but I don’t think there will be a Mark IV version of any a7 until after the next release of the a9, which I expect to be in time for the 2020 olympics.
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davidgp

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 05:12:03 pm »

What's the hurry to update given the specs of the new Canon and Nikon?

I suppose if they see a considerable slowdown in sales, they maybe consider release something to overshadow the other brands...

davidgp

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2018, 05:15:44 pm »

IF Sony is going to update the a7s, you’ll see an a7s3 next year, but I don’t think there will be a Mark IV version of any a7 until after the next release of the a9, which I expect to be in time for the 2020 olympics.

Rumors are saying a7s III end of this year, I think this is the camera Sony most needs to update, to add output 4k 60p and 10 bits 4:2:2 over HDMI... it is my impression, but since videographers tend to use a lot of adapted lenses, they tend to be less loyal to a brand if they see an advantage in what other competitor offers.

Yes, if Sony does not feel nervous about Canon, Nikon and maybe Panasonic releases, they could wait until 2020, that makes sense in their internal release cycle. But then again, Sony it is not strange in updating yearly models (even in less than a year if we see the release of the a6300 followed by a6500 in more or less over 6 months).

HywelPhillips

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2018, 04:45:05 am »

Well, this is certainly the year of mirrorless announcements.

Nothing to tempt me away from my Sony set-up just yet, but plenty to make me think that we're in for an interesting few years. Version 2 of everyone's new mirrorless offerings could well be awesome- in a couple of years time we could have some even-more-awesome kit to play with.

The thing I am most tempted by thus far is that rangefinder-style Fuji medium format. I won't buy it because of the cost of lenses and the lack of IBIS, but it certainly caught my attention. The 100 megapixel Fuji that's coming next year looks like it will be a beast- that might be the one to watch. If they can really crack PDAF and IBIS in a large sensor that will for sure make me rent one to try it out.

The Panasonic full frames sound cool, but I wonder whether they will struggle with AF. The challenges are greater for FF than for 43rds, IMO. Especially as there are competitors with decent video autofocus. As I'm often a one or two person operation, good-enough video AF has become something we rely on for getting results quickly.

Sigma Foveon- it's always seemed like a very cool technical solution so I'd like to see what they come up with. Just pay attention to the software, guys.

Nice to see some more competitive lens options for people photography from Hasselblad, too. The next-gen X2D and 80mm f/1.9 makes an intriguing combo, given that I shot about 60% of all my sales on an H3Dii with an 80mm f/2.8 for getting on for a decade.

Finally, it's great to see some stuff which will put competitive pressure on Sony. Their technical innovation over the last few years has been impressive- I just wish they'd start with a blank sheet and try again as far as ergonomics go!  ;)

It is interesting that they all have their flaws. No-one has really cracked every aspect that is important to me.

Anything of the current announcements interest you?

  Cheers, Hywel

 

 
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scooby70

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Re: Mirrorless, everywhere!
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2018, 04:42:56 am »

For me one of the biggest surprises is how useful face/eye detect can be together with being able to focus just about anywhere within the frame. This removes the need to move the focus point or worse focus and recompose and enables faster shooting just concentrating on capturing the moment and the framing, for people shots at least.

Improvements in these areas are only going to make things even better.
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