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Author Topic: After Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. And The WINNAH is FUUUJIIII !!! )  (Read 22518 times)

nemtom

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #140 on: September 14, 2018, 03:15:40 PM »

As for Hasselblad so far they have not shown any DJI money turned into progress so we wait until the 25th and I’ll give them the benifit of doubt. It’s however becoming increasingly difficult to believe since every other brand has shown their hand with a glimpse or a rumor but not H.

That is incorrect. How about that tiny L1D-20c sitting under the mavic 2 pro? That is the only final, shipped product of the recent announcements.
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BJL

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors: for better bokeh, get a phone?!
« Reply #141 on: September 14, 2018, 04:28:44 PM »

Now the phones have wide angle lenses with huge dof, and it is impossible to get decent subject separation when doing a portrait. That is why computational bokeh is hot, not because people are searching for extreme blur.
...
The desire for mildly blurred backgrounds is simply a return to the esthetics of the 1950s ...
I am not saying otherwise (did I say anything about extreme blur?). I am just noting that fulfilling that desire for "mildly blurred backgrounds" could cease to be much of an argument for bigger, heavier lenses and bigger, more expensive sensors. Maybe high shutter speed/low light photography will reassert itself as the main and more fundamental reason for larger apertures.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #142 on: September 14, 2018, 06:05:16 PM »

After years of focus on capturing as much information in a scene as possible with computational photography off-camera (stitching, DoF stacking,...), I am excited to see the field expanding to in-camera applications.

I find it interesting that the most relevant application today is to get less DoF.

Interesting but not surprising since the control of DoF has always been one key aspect of photography. I would argue that it is probably the first moment of truth materializing the fact the photography is an interpretation of reality and not a mere attempt to capture a snapshot or reality.

The camera in phones was first about recording reality. But now, thanks in great part to DoF control, it is IMHO turning into photography as perceived intuitively by non expert users. It is one essential milestone in the perception of the positioning of smartphones amidst the real cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 06:48:11 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #143 on: September 14, 2018, 07:24:09 PM »

After years of focus on capturing as much information in a scene as possible with computational photography off-camera (stitching, DoF stacking,...), I am excited to see the field expanding to in-camera applications.

I find it interesting that the most relevant application today is to get less DoF.

Interesting but not surprising since the control of DoF has always been one key aspect of photography. I would argue that it is probably the first moment of truth materializing the fact the photography is an interpretation of reality and not a mere attempt to capture a snapshot or reality.

The camera in phones was first about recording reality. But now, thanks in great part to DoF control, it is IMHO turning into photography as perceived intuitively by non expert users. It is one essential milestone in the perception of the positioning of smartphones amidst the real cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

 You dish out abstraction with the panache of a french chef serving crępes.

 It's interesting to see how long it took for the computer in the camera to catch up with the camera. But is was to be expected that the computer in the camera would swallow the camera.

 If I understand the Apple keynote rightly, the variable bokeh is obtained by using a fairly coarse depth map to attempt an inverse render, determine the objects and then re-render. I guess that's more or less what I do when I draw. In which case I would say that a key feature of photography - the assumption of reality - has now been abstracted away,  and the capture has become a chimera dreamed by a machine. But then we knew that already. Just look at your average auto-cleaned selfy.

 So I agree with you.

 What is interesting is that for you the smartphone is the smart object which can do that by itself, according to the user's desires. The big camera is not hooked up to the Google or Apple cloud, it can't add mascara and lipstick, reshape a chin, move away a frenemy or resize a waist.  The big camera is as dumb as that big hairy lout who's using it, the man who doesn't understand how teens see the world - Papa.

 So the smartphone is a tollgate to mediated perception. It can view what is received, but it can edit what will be sent. The big camera is just a capture device that cannot edit.

 But we knew that too, from the beginning. The brains are in the net. As time moves on, anything that is not connected is insignificant, onboard software will be deprecated in favor of symbiotic local/remote coprocessing. The present state where online software is cached as "apps" is just a momentary phase. The smartphone "terminal" is mightier than the 150Mp camera "standalone device".

 Which is why teens have stopped buying cameras, and they're not going to start again :)

Edmund

PS. I prefer crępes to abstraction any day of the week; actually the one nice thing about winter is one can eat crępes outside.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 08:43:48 PM by eronald »
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Manoli

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #144 on: September 15, 2018, 02:37:31 AM »

Which is why teens have stopped buying cameras, and they're not going to start again :)

Not just teens.

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Manoli

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #145 on: September 15, 2018, 02:55:46 AM »

* deleted *
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 06:16:17 PM by Manoli »
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landscapephoto

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #146 on: September 15, 2018, 10:29:57 AM »

Which is why teens have stopped buying cameras

Unless it is built by Lomo.
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #147 on: September 15, 2018, 02:51:09 PM »

Unless it is built by Lomo.

Or called Instax, and medium format :)

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #148 on: September 17, 2018, 02:33:00 PM »

Or called Instax, and medium format :)

Edmund

The Fuji Leaks about the "rangefinder" GFX 50R are getting more insistent.
Some "sketches" have dropped.
Fuji PR is milking the suspense for all it's worth.
Drip, drip, drip.
https://www.fujirumors.com/leaked-this-is-the-fujifilm-gfx-50r-accurate-sketches/

Edmund
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narikin

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #149 on: September 17, 2018, 08:25:40 PM »

The Fuji Leaks about the "rangefinder" GFX 50R are getting more insistent.

https://www.fujirumors.com/leaked-this-is-the-fujifilm-gfx-50r-accurate-sketches/

Edmund

One thing to remember about the GFX-50R 'compact' MF rangefinder, is that due to immutable laws of physics, it can never really be that small. The body can be compact-ish, but not the lenses: a 'standard' lens for this would be about 60-70mm, and be far larger than a 'standard' FF lens, and much, much larger than an APS-C 'standard'.  These are optical laws that cannot be broken.

Sure, there might be a pancake lens released by Fuji/someone, but it will likely have poor edge performance, with strong CA, from design compromises. Good lenses, that is: lenses good enough for a 50 or 100Mp sensor, will be big and near impossible to shrink meaningfully.

 
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #150 on: September 17, 2018, 09:29:05 PM »

I feel fairly confident predicting a compact 40mm lens to go with the GFX 50R.

Edmund

PS please like and follow my Instagram.

One thing to remember about the GFX-50R 'compact' MF rangefinder, is that due to immutable laws of physics, it can never really be that small. The body can be compact-ish, but not the lenses: a 'standard' lens for this would be about 60-70mm, and be far larger than a 'standard' FF lens, and much, much larger than an APS-C 'standard'.  These are optical laws that cannot be broken.

Sure, there might be a pancake lens released by Fuji/someone, but it will likely have poor edge performance, with strong CA, from design compromises. Good lenses, that is: lenses good enough for a 50 or 100Mp sensor, will be big and near impossible to shrink meaningfully.

Narikin,

By Pythagoras, the image radius of 24*36 is  21.63mm, and that of 44x33m is 27.5mm so the ratio is 1.27, in other words the necessary image radius has increased by 27%.

Leica has shown us that one can have some very compact pancake wides suitable for street and travel photography, eg the 35mmf2 Summicron, provided one has enough DR to correct for falloff, and provided the microlenses on the sensor are suitably arranged. They have also demonstrated collapsible pullout designs ad nauseam, while in both cases retaining what their aficionados claim to be decent lens quality.

 I don't think that a 27% increase in coverage radius will invalidate this calculus, if eg. one moves to a 40 or 45mm lens. I believe CA is actually  one of the design flaws that is fairly easy to deal with in software. Because we should remember that the lenses used for an EVF camera just need to be correctable, they don't have to be "good".

My expectation of a fairly compact travel lens still stands.  The domestic japanese customer base will want compact. Of course we could see some collapsible tricks as well :)

I would remind you that very compact symmetric wides are seen on the medium format Alpa. If you believe a compact or possibly foldable design does violate some law of opticks, please feel free to educate me.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 06:07:51 PM by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #151 on: September 19, 2018, 05:33:12 PM »

The drip of leaks and mockups for the Fuji GFX-50R is continuing.

At this point I'd say the only real unknown is the exact price.

If the Fuji is a hit -looks like it will be-  I'd expect Hassy to create an entry-priced bundle to compete in the same niche.
Unless Pentax or Phase drop a new product, Hassy and Pentax will be fighting it out for the MF mirrorless market for some time.
I'd expect the membership of this forum to change over time to reflect this new reality.

Edmund

PS. Please like my instagram :)


« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 05:36:56 PM by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #152 on: September 19, 2018, 10:48:02 PM »


Here you can see one mockup body size comparison of the new gfx-50R camera and the gfx-50S and hassy.
Body is said to be 40mm, no cooling box, substantially thinner than today’s Fuji.

Edmund

https://photorumors.com/2018/09/18/fujifilm-gfx-50r-affordable-medium-format-mirrorless-camera-mockup/

The drip of leaks and mockups for the Fuji GFX-50R is continuing.

At this point I'd say the only real unknown is the exact price.

If the Fuji is a hit -looks like it will be-  I'd expect Hassy to create an entry-priced bundle to compete in the same niche.
Unless Pentax or Phase drop a new product, Hassy and Pentax will be fighting it out for the MF mirrorless market for some time.
I'd expect the membership of this forum to change over time to reflect this new reality.

Edmund

PS. Please like my instagram :)
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narikin

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #153 on: September 20, 2018, 05:25:12 PM »

I feel fairly confident predicting a compact 40mm lens to go with the GFX 50R.

With respect, re-posting a rumor about  a 40mm pancake lens from another website is not 'predicting'..!
Nb Photorumors has it as an "equivalent 40mm lens", not a 40mm. No idea whats correct.

That aside, well, they kind of have to release a lens like this, otherwise it would be clear this is an unbalanced camera with big MF lenses on a compact body. I'll stand by my assertion that an equivalent 40mm 'pancake' type lens will have inferior performance compared to say the regular 45mm GFX lens. Resolution and CA will suffer to a degree.  Whether that trade off is worth it, is for individual photographers to decide. It may well be.

It should also be pretty affordable, with fewer elements and simpler design. Traditionally these are Tessar style formulations.



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faberryman

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #154 on: September 20, 2018, 05:45:24 PM »

I can't see Fuji issuing an inferior 40mm lens for the GFR50. The whole point of MF is image quality, not compact size.
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #155 on: September 20, 2018, 06:26:26 PM »

I am not reposting some other site’s rumor, I am stating that I believe Fuji will listen to customer demand for a travel compact MF set and supply some sort of compact wide, which I would assume to be a 35mm wide scaled up by a factor of 1.27, roughly, because that will be a natural expectation for many enthusiasts and a design type that can be compact. My belief is that designs scale by small amounts and so some existing 35mm pancake lens design for 35mm systems can be scaled up a bit and fit the bill.



Edmund

With respect, re-posting a rumor about  a 40mm pancake lens from another website is not 'predicting'..!
Nb Photorumors has it as an "equivalent 40mm lens", not a 40mm. No idea whats correct.

That aside, well, they kind of have to release a lens like this, otherwise it would be clear this is an unbalanced camera with big MF lenses on a compact body. I'll stand by my assertion that an equivalent 40mm 'pancake' type lens will have inferior performance compared to say the regular 45mm GFX lens. Resolution and CA will suffer to a degree.  Whether that trade off is worth it, is for individual photographers to decide. It may well be.

It should also be pretty affordable, with fewer elements and simpler design. Traditionally these are Tessar style formulations.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 06:38:24 PM by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #156 on: September 20, 2018, 06:34:20 PM »

I can't see Fuji issuing an inferior 40mm lens for the GFR50. The whole point of MF is image quality, not compact size.

They may issue a “plastic fantastic”. This is what the Canon 50mm 1.8 and Nikon 50 are sometimes called. They cost almost nothing, are cheaply built, compact, and have very good performance, if what one wants is real world imagery. Leica/Minolta solved the same cheap travel compact problem with a 40mm compact lens for the Leica CL.

I used 50mm 1.8 lenses for years on expensive Canon bodies while traveling,  and was never disappointed.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 06:41:04 PM by eronald »
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faberryman

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #157 on: September 20, 2018, 07:26:35 PM »

As I remember it, those lenses were known as "nifty fifties". "Plastic fantastic" referred to all those crappy plastic amorphous camera bodies so popular in the '80s and '90s. Having lived through it, it was a disastrous time. The term was later appropriated for toy cameras. We'll just have to wait and see what Fuji announces next week.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 07:42:48 PM by faberryman »
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #158 on: September 20, 2018, 08:23:41 PM »

As I remember it, those lenses were known as "nifty fifties". "Plastic fantastic" referred to all those crappy plastic amorphous camera bodies so popular in the '80s and '90s. Having lived through it, it was a disastrous time. The term was later appropriated for toy cameras. We'll just have to wait and see what Fuji announces next week.

Maybe we won't need to wait that long.
I think the faucet drip will become a flood soon :)

What commercial terms Hassy is going to announce to keep its customers, is what interests me more than the specs of a camera which I feel has been completely described ...


Edmund
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Christopher

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My guess is no X1(2)D - 100 or GFX 100 till spring next year. They might announce the development, but as far as I know the sensor is available in very limited numbers and there are companies paying a premium for it.


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