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Author Topic: What a World  (Read 2377 times)

Rob C

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Re: What a World
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2018, 09:58:16 am »

For the same reason people faint in the presence of, say, the original Mona Lisa painting, but are totally cold toward gazillion reproductions of it. Authenticity matters. Especially in photography.


Slobodan! Nobody will buy that as comparable!

Anyway, unless close up and personal, they won't get to see much of it.

;-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What a World
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2018, 10:05:43 am »

Even if the faint-inducing “original” is a reproduction, as the one in The Louvre is rumoured to be?

In other words, it’s all in the mind...

My point exactly. Knowing whether something is fake makes all the difference. Believability matters.

KLaban

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Re: What a World
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2018, 10:43:01 am »

For the same reason people faint in the presence of, say, the original Mona Lisa painting, but are totally cold toward gazillion reproductions of it. Authenticity matters. Especially in photography.

That's the authenticity of attribution and provenance which is often questionable. The authenticity to and of the subject is an entirely different consideration, as is the authenticity of the process and medium.

The difficulty is there are probably as many differing opinions based on differing beliefs about the authenticity of photographic images as there are those who make them. There are also many differing opinions on the authenticity, parameters and classification concerning various photographic genres. We see many examples of these differences here.

Perhaps the best we can do is to have our own beliefs and parameters regarding the various issues around authenticity but on no account expect others to comply to them.

 

RSL

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Re: What a World
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2018, 12:30:39 pm »

Well said, Keith. I suspect it won't be more than another generation, maybe two, before the whole idea of photographic authenticity is dead as a doornail.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What a World
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2018, 12:50:41 pm »

Well said, Keith. I suspect it won't be more than another generation, maybe two, before the whole idea of photographic authenticity is dead as a doornail.

That will probably happen. Already with this generation, where Instagram rules with its filters and 15-sec attention span. However, even this generation looks at catfishing with disdain.

Rob C

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Re: What a World
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2018, 01:44:39 pm »

That will probably happen. Already with this generation, where Instagram rules with its filters and 15-sec attention span. However, even this generation looks at catfishing with disdain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sWjDbU4KT2M

Nothin' noo under the Sun, even online.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What a World
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2018, 01:52:58 pm »

"Catfishing" is a practice on social media to post pictures of oneself that do not correspond with reality. Much younger, altered, photoshopped beyond recognition, etc.

Rob C

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Re: What a World
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2018, 03:38:03 pm »

"Catfishing" is a practice on social media to post pictures of oneself that do not correspond with reality. Much younger, altered, photoshopped beyond recognition, etc.

Yes, I looked for it on Google. Just an extension of PS into virtual (but unreal) life, then.

Where are you picking up all this teenage nonsense, Slobodan? Is your daughter trying to "educate" you? All my young gave up long ago, but still, to be fair, it's why I have computers and this little iPad, something I would never have dreamed of buying, but which has turned out to be invaluable to letting me listen to music whilst I sit in restaurants, locking out the din, the echoes from tiled floors and people competing to make themselves heard above the din. Sarah Moon's pictures never looked better than with a glass of house red in my hand!

So far, it has not followed me to bed. There are limits no gentleman will abuse!

:-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What a World
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2018, 03:47:22 pm »

... Where are you picking up all this teenage nonsense, Slobodan? Is your daughter trying to "educate" you?...

Let’s just say the school of hard knocks. Daughter just provided ex-post theoretical underpinning ;)

Arlen

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Re: What a World
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2018, 07:55:47 pm »

I appreciate all the further input and discussion on this subject. The question of how much image "manipulation" is acceptable comes up often, but at some level we nearly all do it. Adjusting things like exposure, contrast and saturation is standard, almost required. Removing objects is common, and pretty easy to justify at one level. An offending soda can, or a jet contrail, in an otherwise pristine scene shouldn't be there, and on another day might well not have been; so just get rid of them in post, with a clear conscience. Go a step further and remove power lines if the purpose of the image is artistic rather than reportage. How about adding things? Filling in problematic areas or extending the canvas with content-aware fill?

For me a brighter red line to cross has been the addition of significant objects that weren't actually there. In most cases, I still hesitate to step over it.

I'm not wholly unsympathetic to Slobodan's position. It does initially feel like a superb image--even one created for artistic rather than documentary purposes--that was captured completely in-camera is somehow superior (more authentic) to a similar one that was constructed at least partially in software. As if the latter were somehow cheating, skipping the hard work and passing off a fake as equal to an original. But that's probably because most of us here are photographers rather than digital artists, and we value the work of our own kind over that of others. However, I can tell you that creating an image in your mind and executing it in software does not necessarily skip the hard work; at least not for me, in the case of the image you see above.

Moreover, how much of a great camera capture is simply luck? In this era when everyone carries a camera in their pocket, a lucky no-talent rank amateur can be at the right place at just the right moment to catch a rare event and capture an image that legions of dedicated professionals have worked towards for years and missed.

So I guess my main point is that there really are no bright lines, supportable by objective argument, when creating images for 'artistic' purposes. The topic is by nature subjective, and there is room for multiple approaches and points of view.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What a World
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2018, 08:25:44 pm »

... I'm not wholly unsympathetic to Slobodan's position...

Neither am I toward your efforts and the result ;)

Having mentioned Pete Turner, otherwise my inspiration, let me bring up two of his images to illustrate my point and provide some food for thought, one manipulated, the other straight.

The first one is The Giraffe. Apparently, he had an overexposed image of a giraffe and decided to duplicate that slide by placing color gels behind and increasing contrast. There is no question in viewers' minds that the result is an artistic interpretation. Nobody believes that the sky was that red (or green, etc.)

The second, straight one, is the Rolling Ball. He shot it I believe in 1959 by pre-visualizing the shot and waiting for several hours until everything fell in place the way he envisaged it. The lens was 105mm.

I like both shots. I do not rank them as one being better or more worthy than the other. Why? Because they clearly belong to different categories. The same is with Jerry Uelsmann photo montages: they are clearly so. My problem arises when something tries to look like real, but isn't.

In case of your photograph, I already said I like it. As someone mentioned, it would be a terrific cover for a sci-fi book or magazine cover. If I were a sci-fi aficionado, I would probably put a print on my wall. Heck, if I wouldn't know anything about photography, I might put it on the wall even if not a sci-fi fan. But, as a photographer, I wouldn't. I would still pay you a compliment, though :)

Arlen

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Re: What a World
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 12:29:50 am »

I take your points. Fair enough.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: What a World
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 04:10:24 am »

Where are you picking up all this teenage nonsense, Slobodan? Is your daughter trying to "educate" you? All my young gave up long ago, but still, to be fair, it's why I have computers and this little iPad, something I would never have dreamed of buying, but which has turned out to be invaluable...

So you don't treat your iPad like this, then?

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: What a World
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 04:38:06 am »

So you don't treat your iPad like this, then?

Jeremy

Excellent!

Rob

Jim Pascoe

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Re: What a World
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 06:03:13 am »

I love the colours and the idea.  Where it falls down for me is in the 'sun' being too much to the fore in the image.

The air is full of smoke and visibility falls off into the distance - except for the big red ball in the sky.  Personally I would introduce some veiling over the sun to give it a feeling it is shining through the smoke.  As it is my impression is that the orb is just composited into the picture.

Jim
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Chris Calohan

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Re: What a World
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 10:16:37 am »

I love compositing, therefore it strikes my fancy just fine. I did realize immediately it was a composite but then most of mine are quite obvious.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:27:32 am by Chris Calohan »
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Arlen

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Re: What a World
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 11:08:38 am »

Thanks for your thoughts, Chris and Jim. I will consider the suggestion.
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Arlen

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Re: What a World
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 12:29:38 pm »

Slobodan, after reflection on your Turner example it occurs to me that your judgment of a composite seems to hinge on intention, rather than strictly on the image itself. If you perceive that the artist's intent may be deception, you judge it more harshly. In this case the less-clever deceptions are the most likely to be detected and downgraded, whereas truly ingenious deceptions may escape unscathed. But if the artist makes it crystal clear what has been done, as for the giraffe, the image loses no standing due to manipulation. Correct?

What if the artist's intent is ambiguity, to make the viewer stop and think about it?

By the way, the winds here have changed and are coming from the north, bringing smoke from British Columbia and Washington fires to cover almost the entire state of Oregon with Level Red (unhealthy for everyone) air quality. Great for making smoky pictures, but we may have to wear N95 particle masks to get them.
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Telecaster

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Re: What a World
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 03:13:49 pm »

Personally I have a different set of rules for editing/processing my own photos than for judging what I find acceptable or objectionable when done by other people. Because my own rules are formed out of my particular tastes & habits, and have also varied over time, I think it would be silly of me to expect anyone else to abide by or even care about them.

-Dave-
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