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Author Topic: The end of politics  (Read 8198 times)

Jeremy Roussak

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The end of politics
« on: July 28, 2018, 04:49:04 pm »

Well, we tried. When I started to moderate the forums - was it really only four months ago? - I did so in part because I thought we could and should be capable of conducting robust but sensible political debate which could be enjoyed by those who like such things and tolerated by the rest.

I was wrong.

Political discussions have overwhelmed the Coffee Corner, to the near-exclusion of any other topics. They have been conducted with more, far more, heat than light. Entrenched positions have merely been restated ad nauseam and I for one have found them tedious in the extreme to plough through. Worse, the presence of such overt acrimony has driven away photographers who joined to learn, teach and talk about photography.

This last has led us - Kevin, Chris, Debra and me - to decide collectively that political discussions are tainting the Luminous Landscape “community” (in quotes because it is a word I cordially dislike, but in this context I can think of none better) to the extent that they cannot be allowed to continue.

Therefore, as from now:
  • all political threads in the Coffee Corner will be locked;
  • any new political thread will be summarily locked or deleted;
  • the Coffee Corner will revert to being a board primarily for discussion of photography-related topics (LuLa’s raison d’être);
  • topics which have no photographic element to them will be allowed - I see no reason why we should be precluded from discussing other matters of interest - but political discussions will not.
Whether a particular topic is “political” or not, and whether if it blends politics and photography it can properly be regarded as the (acceptable) latter and not the (unacceptable) former or is truly politics with a veneer of photography are matters which will lie wholly within my discretion. For the avoidance of doubt (as we lawyers like to say), my unshakeable view is that, in this context at least, climate change is politics.

I’m disappointed that this step has proved necessary, but there it is. The description of the Coffee Corner has been changed to reflect this new regime.

Jeremy
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AnthonyM

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2018, 05:59:13 pm »

Good decision.
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Farmer

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 06:02:17 pm »

Fair enough.  I said at the beginning that we should let you do your moderating without much in the way of comment and I think, for the most part, people did that and, for the most part, you've done a good job.  My comments below reflect on the few, rather than the many, of your interventions.

Whilst you still retain that role, I will venture one piece of feedback in relation to the political threads.  I think that you were not active enough with the subtle, gentle, moderation that could have steered people away from trouble sooner.  No doubt it's tough and time consuming, but my experience in the past was that timely (and sometimes frequent) "settle it down, guys" or "you're over the line, Phil" or similar served to swing people toward the level of discourse that was requested.  Locking or hiding of threads merely frustrates people, particularly those who had said nothing wrong and had legitimate replies, and the frustrations ultimately spills over into other threads.

The concept of punishing all in order to get the many to influence the few doesn't work when the many have no real influence.  Public expression of dissatisfaction (followed up some times with acknowledgement of improvement) works well to establish the boundaries and for posters to become familiar with the expectations.  Locking or hiding or deleting entire threads, imo, is rarely required.  Individual posts?  Sure, sometimes.  And I know that you did edit posts from time to time where you felt the content was inappropriate - that was good.

More grey responses, less black and white.  More small pushes typically results in less large ones being needed.  To some that comes across as treating the posters like children with the expectation that they should already know better.  But online is different.  There's no physical interaction and intent and emotion and all of that can be so easily misconstrued, particularly when you add in wider cultural experiences and backgrounds.  It's nothing new.  It was like this in the 80s when I was on BBS chat boards and then the early 90s in newgroups or in IRC (before it became the utter den of iniquity) and then from the late 90s when the public web brought us message boards in various forms, and now through to social media.

I'll also take a moment to say thanks for doing what you're doing as I know it isn't easy, and to apologise for my contribution to the end result - I never intended anything inappropriate, but I have no doubt that sometimes some people will have seen it that way, because intentions are often blind to reality.  My apology extends to everyone who might have felt my comments were out of line.
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Phil Brown

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 06:05:40 pm »

As much as I think the decision is unfortunate, I wish to thank you, Jeremy, for your moderating efforts so far.

Kevin Raber

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 06:14:17 pm »

The decision was based on business.  This decision was based on feedback we received many times and from many readers and was jeopardizing the welfare of this site.  When subscribers and readers are leaving we need to rethink things.  Chris and I gave this a second chance and a fair go at it.  Jermey has done an excellent job and shown more patience than Chris or I would have and most certainly Micahel if he was still here.  I have no doubt that Micahel would have cut this off a long time ago.

Let's get back to what this site and forum is all about, Photography.

Thank you for your understanding.
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Chairman Bill

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 06:14:52 pm »

A good move. Too many political arguments are based on emotion & ignorance rather than, in fact in opposition to evidence. Closing down some of the counter-factual idiocy is well overdue. Let's get back to photography.

Chris Kern

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 08:06:17 pm »

The decision was based on business.  This decision was based on feedback we received many times and from many readers and was jeopardizing the welfare of this site.  When subscribers and readers are leaving we need to rethink things.

I wish that decision hadn't been necessary, and I personally enjoyed watching the fireworks (as well as, occasionally, I hope not in an excessively incendiary manner, contributing to them), but your justification is persuasive as far as I'm concerned.  This is too useful a site to jeopardize its economic viability in order to host political debates that are extraneous to its raison d'être.

The principal reason I was drawn to LuLa in the first place was access to photographers who were more experienced, and expert, than I was.  But I also was impressed by the air of civility that Michael Reichmann cultivated on his site.  Very Canadian, I always thought, compared to the sharp elbows we tend to employ south of the border.

Another attraction for me is the site's international character.  The United States is so big, so powerful, and so isolated by various factors—not just the Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans, but also our own self-absorption—that I appreciate the exposure to different points-of-view I find here, even if they occasionally make me uncomfortable, from contributors in other countries.

I don't think there is anything that has happened in the United States since we became the dominant international economic and military power that is comparable to the election of Donald Trump.  Trump has provoked intense reactions, mostly negative, almost everywhere.  And also robust arguments supporting him from a few contributors to this site, whose comments often irritated me.  Thank you, Gentle Men.

I can't argue with your business decision, but I hope it doesn't provoke the political partisans to go elsewhere.

Because those who might be tempted to walk may be talented photographers and, despite my advanced age, I suspect I could still learn something from them.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 09:05:53 pm by Chris Kern »
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John McDermott

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 08:42:18 pm »

I couldn't have possibly said it better myself. Thank you Chris Kern.
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John E. McDermott

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 10:28:30 pm »

A shame to have to close politics as a subject, but the writing was on the wall.
Firstly, I wouldn't want to have to be the moderator to wade through it all.
Secondly, instead of a thread opening with a request for help, it's a subject that opens with someone offering an opinion they know to be true. Nothing wrong with that, but there is a point where enough people have chimed in and we know what will happen if the thread continues in the same vein
There is a belief that the intense reactions seen in current politics is unique. That's probably nonsense. This is nothing compared to what I recall of the Vietnam war and anti-apartheid era. What I just can't recall is how it felt then. Which feels a bit weird. Anyway.
What I think is different now is the presence of social media and web chat rooms which reflect back to people their own opinions and values. People now live in an echo chamber and become more than uncomfortable when their values are questioned.
This has always happened but seems more intense now. In the past we had to deal face to face with those who disagreed with us. As a teenager this meant being patient while those who were clearly deranged spoke. On the other hand we knew we had some 30 seconds to offer a polite-ish counter argument, and that did focus the mind wonderfully. That's not to say it was a better world, not at all. Just that times change but there is not much new under the sun. People still have the same underlying needs and emotions as they did 10,000 years ago.
Perhaps we should start some threads on cat photos.
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Schewe

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 11:27:18 pm »

Perhaps we should start some threads on cat photos.

I did...it didn't go very far.

Cats on catnip (photos)
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2018, 11:39:38 pm »

The political threads were a bit like Photographers on Catnip.

The experiment of allowing politics had ample opportunity to show that it could remain civilized, so I think the decision to ban politics is a wise one. I come to LuLa for photographs and discussion of all matters photographic, and I am sure that Michael would agree with the decision to end the squabbling.

I thank the LuLa team for the decision, and I thank Jeremy for his excellent performance of the difficult job of moderation during these turbulent times.

-Eric
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 12:10:53 am »

Politics and climate change gone; good. Now we need to get rid of the personal attacks throughout the forum!
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Two23

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 01:06:23 am »

Politics have poisoned everthing else in society, didn't expect anything different here



Kent in sd
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jeremyrh

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2018, 05:21:55 am »


What I think is different now is the presence of social media and web chat rooms which reflect back to people their own opinions and values. People now live in an echo chamber and become more than uncomfortable when their values are questioned.
This has always happened but seems more intense now.

I've wasted more of my life than I care to admit on internet discussions, and there has been a lot of pointless bickering, but I've learned a lot of stuff from people whose ideas were different to mine. It's self evident that nothing that anyone types in a forum such as this is reviewed for accuracy or logic. In the past (man, I sound old) it felt like there was a degree of self-censorship - people realised that since anyone could write anything the whole thing was pointless unless people only wrote what was reasonably supportable, one way or another.

What has changed (IMO) is that this gentleman's agreement is over. People type what they want, what serves their purpose, and the aim is no longer to present a reasoned argument to convince others. Quite the opposite - it's to create an environment where the very notion of "facts" is brought into question, where even the simplest of data (attendance at inauguration for example) is questioned. In that environment, the powerful (i.e. rich) can do what they want and everyone else is so confused they don't know where to begin to oppose it. I think the citizens of the USSR were well acquainted with this situation, and now the Coffee Corner has tasted it too.

For Lula, the answer may well be to close down this discussion; for society as a whole, the answer is less obvious!
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Gerry Walden

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 05:37:47 am »

Delighted to read this. As a non-American member who has scant regard for the politics of his own country, let alone those of another, I just want to talk about photographs as and when then need strikes me.

Keep up the good work guys!

Gerry
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 07:45:12 am »

I had the privilege of moderating a climate change thread along with Ray for a couple of months earlier this year.  It was a bittersweet experience as the focus was supposed to be on research findings.  I tried to moderate it with a gentle touch with reminders but near the end of the 'experiment' had to delete some posts that were wildly off target.  The thread was finally locked which was unfortunate.  The owners of LuLa are within their rights in terms of what content is appropriate.  Political threads are always problematic and I've seen more websites closing down comments because they inevitably spiral out of control.  As one who experienced the polarization of the Vietnam war era, it is my view that we are seeing a reopening of the fault lines within the US.  LuLa is a microcosm of this and the rawness of comments (I'm probably as blameworthy as others in this regard) illustrates the divide.

Certainly there may have been some records established for length of thread pages and I hope that the elimination of the political discussions does not markedly decrease the number of page visits and postings that would adversely impact LuLa's business model. ;)
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Rob C

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 12:56:41 pm »

As much as I think the decision is unfortunate, I wish to thank you, Jeremy, for your moderating efforts so far.

I would like to add my name to that.

................................................

Regarding referring to what Michael may or may not have done is a nonsense. LuLa has not been LuLa for quite some time, way before the political climate rose to temperate. No, that's neither a typo nor a mistake in adjective.

Had LuLa remained an act of love, divorced from the need to turn a buck, it would have probably stood still - perfectly pleasantly so, in my opinion - and pottered along with the same pretty big readership it had.

I obviously neither know nor want to know anything about its financial viability - my own concerns me enough; did it overstretch itself too ambitiously with its junkets to´Kina, Leica etc? who knows. Whatever, I get the impression that since turning into a pay-for, even in part, the climate has switched entirely away from a delightful "publish and be damned" one to a politically correct one that has debilitated it editorially as well as, now, within its relationship with long-time readers. When the moment arrives that the views and reactions of people who never post here have to be considered, well, it seems fairly clear to me that the relationship with members - as with the editorial, cannot but be compromised, however many up-front disclosures may be made. It just ain't the same game anymore.

Which is kinda disappointing. Doesn't more than one holy book point out that one cannot seve both God and Mammon?

Rob

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2018, 01:11:20 pm »

Regarding referring to what Michael may or may not have done is a nonsense.
Did you know him and if so, how well?
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D Fuller

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Re: The end of politics
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2018, 02:56:02 pm »

Thank you. I have no doubt at all that Lula will a better place as a result of this change of policy.
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