Epson v750 scans not the greatest, looking for suggestions

[Mark D Segal]

You would think so but it doesn't work very well. The orange mask gets in the way - it's not only inversion, it's also neutralizing so it gets complicated. Todd and I played around with that extensively before we did the article he referenced above. I've also written-up on this website in some detail quite some years ago how to invert with Curves etc in Photoshop - can work well, but also not so straightforward.

[trshaner]

You can use the LR Tone Curve to invert by dragging the endpoints in opposite directions, but then all of the Tone controls work bassackwards. I've also observed some non-linear behavior of the Tone controls, which are designed to work on specific areas of the image such as Blacks/Shadows and Whites/Highlights controls. The reason for this behavior is that the Tone Curve is applied AFTER all of the other controls. The invert function really needs to be done at the raw data level BEFORE the camera profile and settings are applied. That's what we're hoping for from Adobe Engineering!

[John Nollendorfs]

Yep, you need to null out the orange mask. I'm sure it wouldn't take much work for adobe to put in a negative scan mode to invert and null out the mask. But of course that leads them wondering how many users really need that function, that's the real decision maker!!!

[Mark D Segal]

I'll bet if they offered it (a) a lot people with scads of negatives to "scan" would come out of the woodwork, and (b) they would have a one-up on Capture One which only offers it in a very high-end pricey version of the application. I just tried what I wrote Todd about a few posts up: two captures filling the wide dimension of the sensor with the narrow dimension of the negative (so fitting 24mm to 44mm) and stitching them. Produces one integrated photo about 18 x 25 inches at 360 PPI. One can do a lot with that, but the file size is also impressive, coming in at about 400MB before any layers. That's why it would be so nice to do this all in raw!

[trshaner]

You can add your 'Me To' vote and 'Follow' here for an invert function in LR/ACR:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/inverting_in_camera_b_w_negative_scans_to_positives_lr4_feature_request

Concerning orange mask removal you can do that now using the LR WB sliders. In most cases you'll run out to the low end (2000K) of the Temp slider, but you can edit the camera profile using the Adobe DNG Profile Editor to increase the range. Use the Color Matrices tab -Temperature and +Tint such as -50 Temp and +50 Tint up to +100 and -100 settings. The Adobe supplied profiles are dual illuminant (5500K Daylight and 2700K Tungsten) so you need to keep the LR WB Temp setting above about 4500K to keep it in the Daylight LUT. Of course it would be nice if Adobe simply added an option to extend the WB range along with the invert function.

Some people (self included) have used Acetate CP filters between the light source or color enlarger heads to remove the orange mask during the actual camera capture process. It doesn't work as expected due to the heavy Cyan filtration required, which increases UV spectrum light in certain film image areas (i.e. Red = Cyan inverted), causing nasty color shifts.

[Mark D Segal]

"MakeTIFF"+"SilverFast HDR8" make such quick and effective work of all this in a couple of clicks. It's amazingly good and simple.

[Alan Klein]

You would think so but it doesn't work very well. The orange mask gets in the way - it's not only inversion, it's also neutralizing so it gets complicated. Todd and I played around with that extensively before we did the article he referenced above. I've also written-up on this website in some detail quite some years ago how to invert with Curves etc in Photoshop - can work well, but also not so straightforward.

Epsonscan seems to do the job, I believe.  What are they doing?  MAybe we can duplicate it in LR.

[Mark D Segal]

That's true if you are scanning film with a scanner. We're discussing the post-processing of negatives captured with a digital camera. Nothing Epson Scan can do with such files.

[Alan Klein]

But what algorithm does Epsonscan apply?  Can't that be duplicated?

[Mark D Segal]

They don't publish their algorithms. Vuescan and SilverFast 8/HDR Studio 8 also have many "negative profiles" - they aren't ICC profiles, they are their own algorithms for doing these inversions. The SilverFast ones are capable of being edited within the application, but the underlying code is not provided. Todd has outlined ways of doing these inversions in Photoshop and Lightroom, as had I in previous articles on this site quite a few years ago for Photoshop. It can be done, but it's just not very straightforward.

[Alan Klein]

Who's the genius at Epson who came up with the algorithm?  I bet it's pretty simple.

[Mark D Segal]

There isn't "an algorithm". There's a large number of them because each film has different characteristics, so the inversion/remapping math differs somewhat for each. In software companies that aren't one-man operations, application development is worked on in teams with quality control engineers reviewing their output. But as users we aren't made privy to any of that, so your basic concern to know whether we can apply algorithms made for film scanning to camera capture of film images will remain unanswered, unless someone on this forum has inside information that they are allowed to share.

[Alan Klein]

Epsonscan does not know which color film it's scanning only that it is a negative.  So it's removal of the orange mask has to be a common and simple algorithm that applies to all negative color film. 

What if applications of color reversal were applied until the rebate section became clear? Then you wouldn't be concerned which film was being used or how deep the color mask was.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I'll bet if they offered it (a) a lot people with scads of negatives to "scan" would come out of the woodwork,

I would get LR CC tomorrow if they added that feature!!!!  I had a Nikon 5000 but was not using it all that much so I donated it for a hefty tax deduction to a local photography share studio last year.  I still have a lot of slides and negatives that I didn't scan as they were not of primary interest.  Nikon makes a nice accessory that mounts on my 60mm macro lens; I think the kit cost with negative holder is about $100 which is cheaper than any scanner option.  I know the D850 has a negative to positive feature on it but alas I only have a D810.

[Mark D Segal]

LaserSoft Imaging's complete negative to positive conversion and editing package is included in their SilverFast HDR Studio 8 application, which one uses without needing a scanner. It does not accept raw files, but it does accept rendered formats such as TIFF, JPEG. It's very good software, but it does cost USD399.

[Mark D Segal]

Epsonscan does not know which color film it's scanning only that it is a negative.  So it's removal of the orange mask has to be a common and simple algorithm that applies to all negative color film. 

What if applications of color reversal were applied until the rebate section became clear? Then you wouldn't be concerned which film was being used or how deep the color mask was.

Just because EpsonScan provides a very elementary and therefore limited algorithm for negative inversion doesn't mean there isn't a lot more to these processes beyond what Epson provides, so you can't draw any conclusions from this about whether algorithms are "common and simple". You would need a certain amount of training in the mathematics of digital imaging or a significant body of relevant experience handling these materials to be able to make such assertions with any authority.

Your question regarding rebates is unintelligible. What on earth are you talking about?

[trshaner]

"MakeTIFF"+"SilverFast HDR8" make such quick and effective work of all this in a couple of clicks. It's amazingly good and simple.

I totally agree, but then you lose the non-destructive raw file workflow that LR provides. LaserSoft used to provide support for raw files in Silverfast, but dropped it a long time ago. It's a daunting task to support all of the camera models plus new models as they are released!

[Mark D Segal]

That's true about the raw file workflow, but for most purposes most of the time for me that's a lower priority concern, especially considering the quality of the processing algorithms we have in current software. As well, through the raw capture, MakeTiff process and HDR inversion, it's all linear till the inversion, and there's nothing that needs to be preserved except the results; then you can take the HDR result into LR where all the rest of the editing is metadata and one has the preserved history track.

Yes, LSI had a raw conversion application at one point in the distant past (I don't recall it being part of the SilverFast scanning application - if I remember correctly it was stand-alone) but I too noticed it disappeared after some time. I'm not sure HDR ever supported true raw formats. Recall what they name a "raw" file is really a rendered RGB linear image out of a scanner with no adjustments.

[trshaner]

I would get LR CC tomorrow if they added that feature!!!!  I had a Nikon 5000 but was not using it all that much so I donated it for a hefty tax deduction to a local photography share studio last year.  I still have a lot of slides and negatives that I didn't scan as they were not of primary interest.  Nikon makes a nice accessory that mounts on my 60mm macro lens; I think the kit cost with negative holder is about $100 which is cheaper than any scanner option.  I know the D850 has a negative to positive feature on it but alas I only have a D810.

The D850 negative digitizer has some serious issues so not a great loss that you have the D810!

https://petapixel.com/2017/10/24/review-nikon-d850s-negative-digitizer-isnt-ready-prime-time/

The Nikon ES-2 film adapter looks like a cost-effective solution for your D810 with 60mm macro. You can start processing slides today using just LR (any version) and negatives using LR and PS or LR and SilverFast HDR. Please refer to the article Mark and I co-wrote detailing both workflows.

https://luminous-landscape.com/scannerless-digital-capture-and-processing-of-negative-film-photographs/

[Alan Klein]

Just because EpsonScan provides a very elementary and therefore limited algorithm for negative inversion doesn't mean there isn't a lot more to these processes beyond what Epson provides, so you can't draw any conclusions from this about whether algorithms are "common and simple". You would need a certain amount of training in the mathematics of digital imaging or a significant body of relevant experience handling these materials to be able to make such assertions with any authority.

Your question regarding rebates is unintelligible. What on earth are you talking about?

If the orange mask is on the rebate section as well as on the area of the film that is exposed, would trying to change the rebate section to what it would look like without the mask be a way to develop an algorithm to get rid of the mask across the entire exposure?  If not, why not?